Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ballıqaya massacre

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete and keep. There is consensus that the Gugark massacre/pogrom meets the general notability guideline. Discussion as to what its proper name is, and whether or not specific redirects should exist, is beyond the scope of this deletion discussion. There is consensus that the other topics lack independent notability. Barkeep49 (talk) 01:54, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ballıqaya massacre

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I am also nominating the following related pages:

All of these articles were created recently, most during the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh conflict (Ballıqaya was created slightly earlier). All of them use exclusively unreliable Azeri or Turkic "sources", there are no third-party sources at all. They all contain graphic claims:

A man named Garib, a member of the county council who lost a foot in the Second World War, was evacuated from his home, tied to an apple tree in his garden, and then set on fire after gasoline was poured on him. 13 more people, including one foreigner, were tied to a tree and set on fire.
The crimes were committed with special cruelty. The victims' arms, legs, noses, ears were cut off, their eyes were gouged out, their bellies were torn, burned and tortured to death.
One of the victims was a 6 months old infant. Armenian troops burned all bodies after committing the massacre.

Yet despite that, practically nothing about them seems to have been written by third-parties. These article subjects have not gotten nearly as much coverage as the Shusha massacre, Sumgait pogrom, Kirovabad pogrom, Baku pogrom, Operation Ring, Khojaly tragedy, or Maraga massacre. A Google Books search brings up nothing. Thomas de Waal, who is usually pro-Azeri, doesn't mention them at all in his Black Garden book. Steverci (talk) 01:27, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Azerbaijan-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 06:36, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 06:36, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 06:36, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Armenia-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 06:36, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. WP:NP, WP:RS, All aforementioned articles are classical azerbaijani propaganda, written by same editors. Not a single verifiable third-party source. Simple google search brings up azeri sources. Articles mostly promote ethnic hatred against armenians, a political agenda promoted by azerbaijani government. Addictedtohistory (talk) 13:37, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. per nom and per addictedtohistory. - Kevo327 (talk) 13:56, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Against tagging the information you deem biased isn't hard thing to do. ~~This application is simply WP:JDLI. All Armenian users want to delete this for a undoubtful reason, and such way of using the Wikipedia is worrying.~~ Third-party users can do some digging to find extremely reliable sources on these issues, but it seems like the nominator preffered to delete articles on Armenian war crimes once for all. This isn't first time Streverci is doing it. His disruptive behavior has started after his unblock like a month ago. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 14:27, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at the text of the articles, yes, I share the same feeling of them being worryingly POV. But even stubbing an article would do the trick rather than straight up deleting it. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 14:34, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Creating articles in mass promoting same agenda with similar content without credibility, mildly put, stubbing is not a solution but a promotion. You say ...users can do some digging to find extremely reliable sources.... If there where any extremly reliable sources the article wouldn't be up for AfD. Addictedtohistory (talk) 16:15, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We'll see. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 16:58, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The Gugark massacre article seems like it has non-Azeri Russian sources in its Bibliography section. -Śαǿturα^💬 15:37, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Russian source [[1]] is about Armenian pogroms in Sumgayit and Baku. Addictedtohistory (talk) 15:59, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

DeleteThe articles include large sections of unsourced content, one even with witness testimonies. To portray the Armenians massacring Azerbajiani with Azerbaijani sources but no RS is not Wikipedia. In the current state of the articles, delete.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 18:52, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Addictedtohistory, Paradise Chronicle, and Steverci, I've made a massive overhaul to the Gugark massacre. You can check it and comment on it. I don't think its current state is a basis for deletion. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 19:25, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also, it should be titled the Gugark pogrom, not massacre. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 19:26, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've moved the article name to Gugark pogrom per requests here. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 20:28, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Gugark Massacre; Delete rest. Gugark Massacre page has been overhauled with WP:RS sources and WP:NPOV sentences, so it's not in a position to be nominated for deletion anymore, but rest of the articles are either unsourced or badly sourced, so I'd say remove them and if someone ever finds better, WP:RS sources in the future about those topics, they can recreate the articles. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 19:43, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Gugark Massacre, delete others. i agree with CuriousGolden's points. Thanks to Solavirum, Gugark massacre article seems pretty fine now. However, it might need a move to Gugark pogrom or maybe Gugark pogroms.-Śαǿturα^💬 20:24, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've moved the article name to Gugark pogrom per requests here. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 20:28, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Gugark massacre has been moved to Gugark pogrom.

Addictedtohistory, Paradise Chronicle, and Steverci, waiting for your response here. 12:46, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The article still uses Gugark massacre as alternative name and redirects from Gugark massacre. When it comes to war crimes category, it's still not justified how inter ethnic hostilities between civilians in no war zone, where no millitary is involved constitutes war crime. Addictedtohistory (talk) 13:15, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So what? Sumgait pogrom's another redirect is Sumgait Massacre. Redirects are there to make the article easier to find. And if you have problem with the war crime category, then reply to comments in Talk:Gugark pogrom#War crimes? and try to reach a WP:CONSENSUS, because without that, your comment seems like WP:JDLI. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 13:20, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You use Sumgait Pogrom as reference, yet don't notice that it's not categorised as war crime. Addictedtohistory (talk) 13:31, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OTHERSTUFF. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 13:55, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And how's that a basis for deletion? These stuff can be solved in the talk page, and are not reasons for deletion. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 14:15, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Solavirum is right, please argue about that in Talk:Gugark pogrom#War crimes?, this isn't the place.-Śαǿturα^💬 14:20, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. Sincerely, Գարիկ Ավագյան (talk) 10:43, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. Gugark pogrom included. - Kevo327 (talk) 23:23, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's original nomination included the old version of Gugark pogrom article and there haven't been any proper argument for its deletion following the article's remake. So, do you have any argument for its deletion? — CuriousGolden (T·C) 07:09, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. The pogrom in Gugark is not a controversial issue; it is an event confirmed at the time by local Armenian authorities, which also released the number of the killed, and there are enough third-party sources cited in the article.
- Note to administator How is it possible that a user indefinitely banned from editing Armenia-Azerbaijan articles is launching such a nomination? Parishan (talk) 07:22, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. The article Gugark massacre is sufficiently sourced, with the use of third-party sources. Grandmaster 10:21, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Gugark massacre per above. The Shamakhi massacre was probably a spillover of the March Days. Brandmeister^talk 10:46, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Gugark Thanks for the improvements Solavirum. About the others which my vote is still delete. Quoted witness section at Bashlibel massacre still unsourced and unattributed.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 11:53, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Keep all for now. From what I can see sources indicate WP:GNG. BabbaQ (talk) 11:40, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.