Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Adams, Pennsylvania (disambiguation)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. I can't find a consensus here about what to do with the various Adamses. Perhaps somebody else can, and if so, they can implement that consensus when closing the discussions at Talk:Adams, Pennsylvania (disambiguation). Sandstein 13:32, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Adams, Pennsylvania (disambiguation)

Adams, Pennsylvania (disambiguation) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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The county and townships aren't known simply as "Adams, Pennsylvania", so there aren't enough valid entries to have a disambiguation page here. Hog Farm _Bacon 02:26, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. Hog Farm _Bacon 02:26, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Disambiguations-related deletion discussions. Hog Farm _Bacon 02:26, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Pennsylvania-related deletion discussions. Hog Farm _Bacon 02:26, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete and put a hatnote at Adams, Pennsylvania to Adams Township, Pennsylvania (disambiguation) and Adams County, Pennsylvania. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 09:18, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment: I was about to !vote delete and recommend it be replaced with hatnotes, but at Adams Township, Pennsylvania you can see there's another disambig page with three "Adams Township"s in it. While two hatnotes on three pages seems reasonable, five hatnotes on six pages doesn't. jp×g 11:01, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep and merge Adams Township, Pennsylvania (disambiguation) with here Obviously, There are not enough entries on simply "adams" to have its own disambig page. However, if we merge the equally unnecessary Adams Township disambig to here, I think that all issues will be adressed .--Kieran207 talk 22:58, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The township dab should not be merged into Adams, Pennsylvania (disambiguation) as the townships are not commonly known simply as "Adams". They are partial title matches. There is only one entity for Adams, Pennsylvania — a single hatnote on the page to the township dab and county is more than sufficient for any residual ambiguity. older ≠ wiser 11:32, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge this and Adams Township, Pennsylvania into Adams, Pennsylvania; convert Adams, Pennsylvania from a one-sentence stub to a disambiguation page starting with (for example) "Adams, Pennsylvania, or Adams Township, Pennsylvania, can refer to..." ~EdGl talk 19:57, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The township dab should not be merged into Adams, Pennsylvania (disambiguation) as the townships are not commonly known simply as "Adams". They are partial title matches. There is only one entity for Adams, Pennsylvania — a single hatnote on the page to the township dab and county is more than sufficient for any residual ambiguity. older ≠ wiser 11:32, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Very confusing disambiguation page. There is a disambigation page in this page (talk about disambiguception) here called Adams Township, Pennsylvania. I think that disambiguation page should be redirected to Adams, Pensnsylvania disambiguation page and the links there to this page too. CAVETOWNFAN (talk) 20:45, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Duplicate comment of CAVETOWNFAN removed. ~EdGl talk 21:40, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep and merge Adams Township, Pennsylvania (disambiguation) into this article per Kieran207. The purpose of a DAB is to help readers navigate; this article meets that, but having the township be a separate DAB makes no sense when it could be handled in one page, it just adds a potential step for the reader, without returning any benefit.  // Timothy :: talk  12:56, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The township dab should not be merged into Adams, Pennsylvania (disambiguation) as the townships are not commonly known simply as "Adams". They are partial title matches. There is only one entity for Adams, Pennsylvania — a single hatnote on the page to the township dab and county is more than sufficient for any residual ambiguity. older ≠ wiser 11:32, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge As per above merge this and Adams Township, Pennsylvania into Adams, Pennsylvania. SwashWafer (talk) 16:54, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The township dab should not be merged into Adams, Pennsylvania (disambiguation) as the townships are not commonly known simply as "Adams". They are partial title matches. There is only one entity for Adams, Pennsylvania — a single hatnote on the page to the township dab and county is more than sufficient for any residual ambiguity. older ≠ wiser 11:32, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Adams, Pennsylvania (disambiguation) or perhaps redirect to Adams Township. A single hatnote at Adams, Pennsylvania for the township dab and county is sufficient. The townships and county are all partial title matches and there is no need to overcomplicate matters with bi-directional hatnotes. In other words, someone arriving at one of the township articles *might* have been looking for one of the other townships, but are unlikely to have been looking for the community or county. The community and county can be linked in see also from the township dab. That is all the merging that is needed. The township dab should remain at Adams Township, Pennsylvania. older ≠ wiser 11:22, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. I see only one place specifically called Adams, Pennsylvania. All the others are "Adams Township" (which have their own DAB and should be kept) and then one "Adams County". Just do this: add a hatnote to Adams, Pennsylvania with the link to Adams County, Pennsylvania and vice-versa. Cordially, History DMZ ^{(HQ) † (wire)} 01:51, 19 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge is the sensible thing. The goal is to serve readers looking for what they think will be called Adams, Pennsylvania, which includes place(s) apparently technically named "Adams Township, Pennsylvania". Contra User:Bkonrad (older ≠ wiser)'s repetitive repeated statements, we can do this, this is what serves readers, one-stop shopping. --Doncram (talk) 02:06, 19 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, my point is that Adams Township, Pennsylvania should not be merged into Adams, Pennsylvania (disambiguation). As for merging the other way, there's nothing to merge as all the entities are already on that page. There is only one entity named "Adams, Pennsylvania" and any residual ambiguity can be addressed with a hatnote to the township disambiguation. older ≠ wiser 03:12, 19 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, I understood your points completely, as I think did others, and I think it is unhelpful that you repeat repeat yourself. I think it is patronizing and unhelpful to treat readers looking for towns and/or places named Adams, Pennsylvania as if they should know in advance that the word "Township" is required. Having one disambiguation page at "Adams, Pennsylvania" avoids surprises and OBVIOUSLY serves readers better, requiring all to see just one page where it is easy for them to see what they want, as opposed to the alternatives that they may know they do not want. --Doncram (talk) 05:43, 19 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • No, it is a very simple thing, really. Most townships in PA, especially rural townships, are rarely referenced without the twp part. Sometimes there are settlements within a township that have the same base name as the township, but that is not the case here. Do you have any actual evidence that these townships are referenced as simply "Adams"? So no, it does NOT obviously serve readers better to have the disambiguation page situated at a title which most of the entities are not known by. And there is absolutely no reason for two disambiguation pages — the only ambiguous title is "Adams Township, Pennsylvania". older ≠ wiser 11:21, 19 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • OF COURSE it is silly to deny that there will be shorthand usage. Of course there will exist local usage in shorthand omitting "Township", because all people including yourself, O ≠ W, use shorthand from time to time. OF COURSE there will be "incorrect" usage in broader contexts where shorthand usage is in fact ambiguous. Okay, for an online example, see Map of Adams Pennsylvania PA, which is selling a T-shirt showing where, technically, Adams Township, Cambria County is located but labelling it "Adams". Can I buy you one? Everyone who votes the correct way in this AFD gets one. --Doncram (talk) 16:34, 19 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
          • And why does any of that mean we should change the location of the disambiguation page to an incorrect title? No one will be in the least bit inconvenienced with the disambiguation page at at Adams Township, Pennsylvania. As it currently stands, readers arriving at Adams, Pennsylvania have to click on a link in the hatnote to get to other articles. You've not given any reason for the disambiguation page to be at Adams, Pennsylvania (disambiguation) rather than Adams Township, Pennsylvania other than sometimes people might incorrectly refer to a township as simply Adams. older ≠ wiser 16:52, 19 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
            • You asked for example of common usage which you happen to view as "incorrect", and I provided that, and now you want to move the goalposts?
            • Well, as a matter of fact, it would be better to move the disambiguation page to Adams, Pennsylvania and move the one-sentence (after i edited it down from two sentences) article about the Adams community in Armstrong County to some other name. Probably it should be moved to Adams, Armstrong County, Pennsylvania, as it is most likely not the wp:PRIMARYUSAGE of the term "Adams, Pennsylvania". By the way its article has no indication of significance besides that it is a GNIS location...there are dozens of GNIS location articles up for deletion right now. Either way, the single disambiguation page to be created by merger is needed, and moving it is a matter for a wp:RM after this AFD concludes, i guess. I will invite you all. --Doncram (talk) 17:21, 19 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
              • My point was that we should not be basing our titles on incorrect usage when we already have established naming conventions. If you want to move the disambiguation page, that's a different discussion and not really within purview of this AfD. There is at present only one article that is actually titled Adams, Pennsylvania -- and none that are truly ambiguous -- the townships are NOT normally referenced without the Township part except by brain-dead websites with some sort of automated routine spitting out spammy nonsense. I'd have no problem at all with deleting the one-line article currently at Adams, Pennsylvania and redirecting that to Adams Township, Pennsylvania, but that again would be a different discussion. As for merging, as I already explained, there is really nothing to merge. older ≠ wiser 20:43, 19 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
                • I and most other Wikipedia editors, I think, believe Wikipedia should serve both locals who use shorthand when it is perfectly unambiguous (so there will be usages omitting the "Township" and omitting the County name) and also serve newbies and non-locals who don't know how horribly ignorant they are. Here are a couple more examples (which I believe O ≠ W would deride):
                  • this webpage regarding cemetery in the township in Snyder County which does not use word "township", instead using "St. James Cemetery, Adams, Pa." and "St. James Cemetery, Town of Adams, Snyder County, Pennsylvania"
                  • Another usage of "Adams, Pennsylvania" meaning the township in Snyder County,
                • Whether or not those are "incorrect" usages by evil-type brain-dead persons or bots, there still exist lots of innocent, good persons who will not be aware in advance that in Pennsylvania, as in some midwest states I think, that "Township" or "Twp" is more formally proper, if not required, in good usage. Disambiguation is not for serving the elite who know everything already and dislike those who do not. --Doncram (talk) 21:38, 19 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
                  • Everyone is served by leaving the disambiguation page at Adams Township, Pennsylvania. Those reaching Adams, Pennsylvania as it is currently set up are still just one click away from the disambiguation page. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to change our naming conventions to suit incorrect usage. In cases where casual usage has become the main usage over official or formal names, then yes, we should follow usage. But that is most definitely not the case here. older ≠ wiser 21:48, 19 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
                  • Also, don't twist my words. I NEVER referred to "evil-type brain-dead persons". Just stop that crap now. older ≠ wiser 21:51, 19 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment: close related merger proposal and related moves proposals too: There has been a Merger proposal at Talk:Adams, Pennsylvania (disambiguation)#Proposed merge of Adams Township, Pennsylvania into Adams, Pennsylvania (disambiguation) ongoing since January 30, opened by User:TimothyBlue(, where O not W and I have now commented. (This AFD should not have been opened; the merger request was outstanding and would implement what several persons above suggested independently.) Also there is now Talk:Adams, Pennsylvania (disambiguation)#Requested move 19 February 2021 to move the disambiguation page to "Adams, Pennsylvania" and to move the Armstrong County GNIS location over redirect at "Adams, Armstrong County, Pennsylvania", which I just opened to nail down the remainder of the whole problem, formally. This AFD, the Merge proposal, and the Move proposal should be closed together, implementing the general will of !voters above: the correct closures will be "Keep" the disambiguation page, "merge" the Adams Township items into it, and "move" it to "Adams, Pennsylvania". --Doncram (talk) 21:38, 19 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment: Doncram my merge proposal was from 30 Jan, so this AfD actually predates it from 8 Jan. I was the one that was out of order.

I created the merge discussion when it looked like this was going to clearly be either Keep or merge. It was an error on my part to open a merge discussion before this closed as it only complicates things here. I intended to point to the discussion here, but did not for some reason which is another mistake on my part. If no one objects I would like to close my merge proposal with a explanatory note about this discussion, so that this AfD can proceed normally; the only person to reply to the merge proposal has also commented here.

Hog Farm, I did not intend to complicate this AfD, but I have complicated it. I am sorry for the unintended disruption.

Everyone please feel free to Trout me, except Hog Farm which should substitute the trout with a pig.  // Timothy :: talk  22:46, 19 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No trout (or pig) coming from me. Just a mixed-up AFD that's been ongoing for a month and a half. My recommendation would be to close the AFD as no consensus, and direct all participants to the merge discussion. There's clearly no consensus to delete in this AFD, and I see no reason for an old AFD that's not really going anywhere to take precedence over the (three weeks younger) merger discussion that may result in a consensus. To me, it seems best to no consensus this (I don't think there's a real preference between keep/merge/delete), let the merger discussion finish off, and then go about with the move discussion. I'd recommend waiting on the move discussion until the AFD/merge get sorted out so we know the exact situation with page titles we're gonna have. Hog Farm _Talk 22:57, 19 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Hog Farm, this should be closed as no consensus. This AfD has gone on for an unusually long amount of time and thus we should now consider the aforementioned alternatives. Cheers, History DMZ ^{(HQ) † (wire)} 00:41, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep (move to Adams, Pennsylvania and Merge in Adams Township, Pennsylvania). This best serves readers not knowing formal/official names of places. There are many towns and villages in New York State with the same name and they are listed on dab pages by the common name without the administrative differentiator. Do the same here. MB 23:44, 19 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.