User talk:WesleyDodds/Archive 3

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Can you do something with the pop-punk section pls. Or does it deserve a heading of its own, at all. + Ceoil 03:29, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm thinking that alt rock (Sonic youth, Dinasour jr, wedding present etc), grunge, pop punk, and post punk revival (block party, Interpol etc) should be weighed equally as sub gendres, rather than just lumped into "legacy"; which is currently denoted merely as having been being 'recent', rather than significant. + Ceoil 03:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree, alt rock shouldn't be a subgenre. Re "in the UK alt/indie rock is seen as a clear break from punk" - there's been some heavy revisionalist going's on there in the last few yrs there of course. I don't paticularly like the phrase 'Alternative rock' though, coming from an 80s indie backround - DIY, independent and that ;). All that said, I still need to reconcile a 'legacy' section (past), with a direct sub gendre (current). Thanks for your input anyhow. + Ceoil 04:41, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, the term 'alternative' is almost never used here, except in (some) press. 'Indie' is a v. broad term for us. I remember a BBC programme around 1988, that lumped Wedding present, Fugazi, Extreme Noise Terror and, ahem, House of Love, as all being the crop of that yrs 'indie' scene. That said, in my mind indie goes from wire right up to block party. + Ceoil 04:59, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Y'know my favouritebookever is David Cavanagh's The Creation Records Story. It goes into detail on the struggle with loveless, but also has some great stories on Guy Chadwick, who was, to be fair, very odd. Yeah, HOL had some great songs - Christine, man to child - saw them 2 yr ago though at local gig; not good. + Ceoil 05:13, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I added facts to the Nirvana page and sourced it and you removed it with the words "Revert, you moved the reference to the wrong point", i dont really understand what you mean with that... /—Nirvana77

Hi, would you mind taking a look at the section titled "Input needed at Anarcho-punk and Straight edge" at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Punk music. Thanks. Ungovernable Force^{Got something to say?} 02:25, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I'll definitely take a look at The Smashing Pumpkins in the next few days. My thoughts on a GA album (I'm happy to collaborate) are Zen Arcade or Daydream Nation; I'll start looking for sources ASAP. Would you mind taking a look at the Frank Black FAC? It needs a few more comments. Thanks! CloudNine 14:26, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Just to clarify, do you want me to help with the 'After the breakup' or the section before? CloudNine 13:37, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for rating the No Doubt article. I just wanted to make sure that the ratings are the same when an article is under the scope of more than one WikiProject (as in, should the B-rating also be added to the WPBio template?). —ShadowHalo 10:07, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I get your perspective on it. It's reasonable. I differ. Here's my take:

(A) "Alternative rock" is not a genre. It's a commercial label applied for primarily commercial reasons to a broad range of music that shares only one common element—it doesn't sound terribly much like the most commercially successful music of the immediately preceding period. (I'm challenging the thesis presented in the alternative rock lede, of course. I think the Overview section states it better—it's an "umbrella term", not for a cultural movement, not for a scene, not for a sound, but for the constituents of a very interesting period in U.S. pop music commerce.)

Thus:

(B) Grunge absolutely should be listed as a significant subset of alternative rock, because it certainly was, commercially. But that tells us nothing about its historic derivation. It is, in the simplest terms, one of the several (or, Christ, probably dozens depending on how deep into one's thrashing navel one wants to gaze) hardcore–heavy metal fusion styles. It should appear as a fusion genre in each of the respective infoboxes as a matter of historical fact.

(C) Indeed, much (though nowhere near all--um...Lemonheads, anyone? Goddamn Gin Blossoms?) of alternative rock was punk-derived. That's exactly why it gets the amount of coverage it does in the punk rock article. No reason at all to eliminate the subgenres that are both punk and alternative rock from the punk infobox.

(D) In short, there's no redundancy. Grunge's appearance in the alternative rock infobox properly conveys worthwhile information. As does its appearance in the punk infobox. There's no rational basis to favor one or the other to the extent of eliminating it in either case.

(E) Your point about gothic rock is v-e-r-y interesting. We could start a whole colloquy that I would begin by arguing that grunge shares more significant elements with punk qua punk than does goth; that the hardcore that grunge developed out of is the prime inheritor of fundamental punk, while goth's post-punk parent is like the second son (and New Wave's just the kissin' cousin)...but let's just agree to pretend to forget about it.—DCGeist 12:22, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Excellent discussion. However, your detailed and convincing argument that goth is more closely related to post-punk than grunge is to hardcore does not at all establish that I'm "flat-out wrong." I claimed (a) that grunge shares more significant elements with punk qua punk than does goth. Nothing in your argument contradicts that. It's an arguable point, but it's not what you argued. I also claimed (b) that the hardcore that grunge developed out of is the prime inheritor of fundamental punk, while goth's post-punk parent is like the second son. That's substantially less arguable, and again, you didn't really argue against it. You did make the valid and important point that the Damned, a true first wave punk band, became one of the first goth bands, but that doesn't demonstrate how close the genres are. Rather, it shows how much the band's sound changed. I suppose you're referring to The Black Album. If there's anyone more authoritative than Ira Robbins and the Trouser Press Record Guide in this field, let me know. Here's Ira's description: "The first two sides (the entire US release) are packed with melodic rock verging on power pop, using acoustic guitar, vocal harmonies, mellotron and synthesizers." Side three "is a single composition, strung together by church organ." Punk?

In re: "just listing alternative rock also allows for the other hardcore derived non-grunge bands, ie. Husker Du, Replacements, Meat Puppets, Minutemen, Dinosaur Jr, etc. to be covered in the scope." Nope. Yes, listing (but not "just listing") alternative rock does cover those bands. If only "alternative rock" covered only those bands and their ilk, it might have meant something musically intelligible: non-hardcore, yet non-mainstream rock significantly related to punk in some way and not readily associated with some particular scene-based sound. (By the way, Dinosaur [not forced to be Jr yet] rented the basement of me and my mates' house in Amherst as their rehearsal room. J kept his pet rat down there.) When it's expanded to embrace both Lemonheads and the Washington State grunge bands, then it becomes historically insufficient. Grunge is not meaningfully a subgenre of alternative rock in musical terms. It's a particular scene's hardcore–heavy metal–plus X/Y/Z fusion genre that happened to be subsumed under the alternative rock label. Metalcore, for instance, happened not to be. But that's just the stroke of commercial fate. In historical terms, they're both major hardcore fusion genres. Just because one got branded "alternative" and one didn't doesn't mean the former shouldn't be listed under punk.—DCGeist 07:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

First, quick thought. You're getting at exactly my view with your observation "Pearl Jam and Alice in Chains pretty much have no hardcore influence". Right--"grunge' itself became a commercial label. Those bands obviously had ties to the grunge scene, but the uncritical willingness to call their sound grunge has always made my head hurt (you can see this happens a lot). Green River, Melvins, Mudhoney, and yes Bleach: grunge, a definable scene with a definable sound--one with multiple roots to be sure, but hardcore one of the central ones.

Let me twist the question this way: If we accept your argument that grunge should be cut, shouldn't we also cut 2 Tone? P.S. Anti-folk and deathcountry continue to vex me sorely. If at any point I turn unpleasantly obstreperous, I apologize in advance and ask you to blame "the disturbingly humorous David Cronenberg's Wife [and] shouty acapella poet Spinmaster Plantpot" (see anti-folk...or DON'T).—DCGeist 10:13, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Cripes, my 1st barnstar! Thanks for that, much appreciated. Thought it was incredible the amount of great copy and info DCGeist added in the last few weeks. + Ceoil 21:05, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I noticed that we are both paying attention to the Hüsker Dü pages. I've been adding articles on their songs over the last three weeks, beginning with their EPs and singles (so far I've done from Eight Miles High to Sorry Somehow, including all inbetween). There are still some things I plan on adding, and if you would like to add anything to those please feel free, of course. -- piper108 05:14, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

What?!? He takes it to America and, what, start's hatin' on Psychocandy? I'm sorry, to each his own, no arguing colors and tastes, blah blah blah, but that is not done, mate. Say what you will about later J&MC, but Psychocandy is better than crack.

And did you have to mention Magazine? Now I'm going to be up all hours thinking we've gotta find a place for them in Punk rock...just a sentence... a half-sentence. OK, OK, we don't. OK... Do we....?

P.S. "Art Attacks." No. And I'm a fan of puns--good, bad, and ugly. But no.—DCGeist 06:56, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

This will be interesting, hope you have a safe house tucked away somewhere. The great Wikipedia Alternative rock articles rankings war of 2007 starts here. I'm armed to the teeth btw, and don't you dare go near The Fall with anything less than a 'High'! + Ceoil 22:53, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

From a (now former) Fall guitarist about two years ago; apparently each band member has two amps on stage - one within sight of MES, so he can turn down/up/down; and one behind the drum kit, for playing through. mmm. + Ceoil 23:05, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Re: Farrell

If I had to pick one, I'd go with High. While he isn't exactly well known (by his name at least), his role in the creation of Lollapalooza should pretty much get him up there. Teemu08 01:22, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Re: Smashing Pumpkins

I literally upgraded it to A-class 30 seconds before I received your message. Teemu08 02:05, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

It's been fun going through Smashing Pumpkins. It looks to me in excellent shape...I certainly haven't come across any significant gaps in coverage. You know something about radio (I confess, when I passed my college broadcast licensing test, one of the seniors practically rehearsed every question with me beforehand): take a look at Mutual Broadcasting System if you get the chance. Don't even ask how I wound up writing a detailed history of a dead network I'd barely heard of three months ago (it's got something to do with movies). Anyway, I've got it up for FAC and could use your input. Best, Dan—DCGeist 06:53, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Very helpful comments. Thank you. Could you take a look at the chart I created at your suggestion for the company shares to see if I've done it effectively? I have little experience with Wikichartmaking. And my response on the FAC page on the "See also" matter--is there something I'm not getting?

P-l-e-a-s-e take that back about DuMont. I got into f-in' Mutual (defunct) only because of my work on RKO General (defunct in all but corporate name), which I only got into because of my work on RKO Pictures (defunct in all but corporate name). My head will explode if I devote myself to another dead media org. Anyway, Firsfron's been doing a fine job on it.

As for the Punkins, I think it's almost ready to roll. Two caveats--one tiny, the other hardly major, just a little time-consuming:

• "Cultural vitality" in the lede has gotta go. What does it mean? Where's the support for it in the article? What factual information does it convey that "diminishing sales" doesn't? If Billy or another bandmember or a leading critic used the phrase, we can quote it and use it too, properly contextualized; otherwise, recast or simply cut.
• The Footnotes/References need to be upgraded--really, the latter. I think the style used in Punk rock is a good model, though I'd even go just a little further. I'd make sure (and when I say "I", I mean I'm happy to do it) all published and authored texts appear with full publication info, ISBNs etc., in Sources; they can then appear in abbreviated style in Notes. After that, just a run-through of Notes for stylistic consistency.—DCGeist 03:40, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Take a look at what I started to do as soon as you have a moment. Basically the idea is to get every cite that was published in hard copy, with a named author, into "Sources," leaving an abbreviated reference in Notes. Among other things this (a) gives us a much more impressive Sources list than just Jim DeRogatis, which is about what it would be if we limited it to books, and (b) gives us a clearer look at the purely online references and allows us to identify any that might need to be substituted for. I confess I find it very difficult to deal with the mod ref style employed for most of the cites, so I've been eliminating it as I move the info down to "Sources." If you think it's impt to keep that ref system, just revert me. If you're OK with my approach, I'll carry on. Best, Dan.—DCGeist 06:50, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

(But I'm a fan of "insanely large" Sources sections!) That's fine. Just revert me, or partially revert, as you see fit. Then I'll go in and do a much lighter note style standardization per your preferred format.—DCGeist 08:41, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Hello. I read on your user page that you were an English major. I would appreciate if you could help me out with the Aaron Sorkin article by reviewing it at FAC. There's been some criticism about the lead section, but I'm hoping for more criticism about the rest of the article. Any help you could provide would be really appreciated.-BiancaOfHell 13:54, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey Wess. I'm considering archiving for the first time, and tackling the Smashing Pumpkins talk page. You think we have enough of a lull going on? -- Reaper X 23:38, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Haha, my bad, I saw the thingy at the top of the talk page and thought it was a new one. My bad. Anyways, I'm ok with the article at the moment, but I'll be glad to help you out addressing issues when you FAC it again. I get the feeling we're gonna need to do something with the lead, but we'll see how people feel. :) - Phorque 13:21, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

In "Musical style and influences," no clue what second part of following sentence might mean:

Psychedelic rock was also referenced often in the band's music, originally incorporated as a reaction to trends in the indie scene during the band's early years.

The immediately following reference is to "Commentary for 'Siva' music video. The Smashing Pumpkins 1991–2000: Greatest Hits Video Collection."—DCGeist 18:52, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Brilliant. Chamberlin's comment sounds (reading it, that is) completely sarcastic, while Corgan's second comment sounds completely serious (and along the lines of what you suggested before). I have no way to judge his first line. Do you know enough to gauge whether it's a joke or not? Can you tell from his delivery? Aside from that (and I'm very curoius about the answer), I'd be inclined to quote his second comment in the article.—DCGeist 04:22, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Of course. It'll be a pleasure. (Can you get just one more "band influenced by" in there?)—DCGeist 08:34, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I've added or expanded fair use rationales for all the images in the article. There shouldn't be a problem with any of them at this point.—DCGeist 14:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I added the clip length and fair use rationale, thanks for pointing it out. --piper108 01:25, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Wesley, I've asked Phorque this as well. I'm having copyright problems with a MACHINA II song I uploaded, "Let Me Give the World to You", so we could maybe use it on the SP article instead of a MACHINA song, since Billy put the whole album up for download. I put a {{Copyrighted free use}} tag as the licence, but now some one has removed it and said they "find it highly unlikely that this "redistribution" includes commercial use and the creation of derivative works". Can we solve this? Is there a better licence or some kind of proof we can provide, or are we snagged? -- Reaper X 00:20, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I saw your high number of quality contributions to The Smashing Pumpkins article and wondered if you would consider joining Wikipedia:WikiProject The Smashing Pumpkins, which is in desperate need of members. Thanks! --Brandt Luke Zorn 00:40, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your offer. Yes, there is some stuff I'd like you to cite if you could. Mainly, anything uncited that describes the "major success" of an album; I haven't been able to find good Web resources for that. I also haven't really gotten around to finding very good citations for the last two sections of the article, either. Also, I've never really known how to cite a source twice, the list of references for the article shows that, I'd appreciate it if you could help with that. Again, thanks for your help.ErleGrey 01:00, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I realize that's a lot, so I'll post {{fact}} tags around the article, specifically listing the uncited areas. ErleGrey 01:03, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Can singles be considered EPs? I'm specifically referring to the EP section of the Billy Talent article. -- Reaper X 17:42, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to venture as to why the RSPAA link was removed? I see no reason for it.

Matt "AgentA" 22:15, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

RE: Why? The Smashing Pumpkins, as I presume you know, do approve and endorse bootleg recordings of their performances. Matt "AgentA" 00:23, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

RE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bands_which_permit_recordings_of_their_performances I think is proof. Unless the article is void. Matt "AgentA" 02:58, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

RE:I think we should then check this out and if it's not true remove it from the article. I really think that if the Pumpkins and/or Corgan don't have a problem with this, as I've come to believe, then we should allow the link. Matt "AgentA" 18:02, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

There's another RSPAA link in the discography article... Decision? AgentA (Matt) 00:07, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

This is getting to be tortuous. <biting nails> Ceoil 23:48, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey, your suggestions seem fine, but honestly, I'd be more inclined to leave the article as it is and re-nominate later on. I think most of the samples serve a purpose, and cutting the article to pieces just so that it becomes featured seems a shame. I'm sure we can wait for free images to crop up. Another issue is that with the reunion coming up very soon the article will probably see some major change anyway. If you do really want to tear out all those images/clips, I won't stop you, but I think the article will be the poorer for it. - Phorque 12:03, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

The FAC have been open for over a freakin month! When and how does it close, or get closed? Cause it sure looks like the SP article is an FA once the images thing is dealt with eh? -- Reaper X 18:05, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

the SY picture that was in the infobox box has been removed due to "Removed fair use album cover from article. These images may only be used to illustrate articles or sections specifically about the album"

i was wondering what picture should replace it? the previous one was a photo from 1992, from their most prosperous period, I was thinking a photo more recent would be better suited

i found this photo on the front page of their label's page [1], i am trying to locate the name of the photographer, but is this under the jurisdiction of fair use or not?

i am sure there are enough pictures out there that can be used, if all else i do have a great multitude of my own pictures --Pantophobia 06:43, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I found a few ones that are good, one that is perfect. This one [2], does it matter or not if it is not licensed under creative commons, because I only found one suitable for that purpose under cretive commons. I have not contacted the photographer yet, as I wanted your thoughts, not to mention I don't know the process of uploading and describing pictures like this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pantophobia (talk • contribs) 21:11, 26 February 2007 (UTC).

Heavy? Fucking? Metal? Let's check out my qualifications: I own exactly two metal albums—Motörhead's Orgasmatron and 1916. (Of course, I love Led Zep, too, but have no albums for tedious historic reasons. There is my beloved 45 of "Hey, Hey, What Can I Do," though.) I think of "Helter Skelter" as my favorite heavy metal song; PJ Harvey's "Long Snake Moan" as my second favorite. "Kashmir" is my favorite Zep song, but is it metal? Never, even in my most feverish dreams, did I imagine myself laying an editorial hand on this subject matter... Well, I can't wait to see you grappling with Deathrocker over the appropriate level of attention to devote to...um...Edguy and Hammerfall. Edguy and Hammerfall. I may cry... Of course I'll help.—DCGeist 19:32, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I saw your recently nominated article for the FAC. Great work, I have to say! I also nominated Ohio Wesleyan University, an article that I've been working on for the past few months. Feel free to provide your opinion...I really liked your article, so I would like to improve the OWU article based on any recommendations that you might have. Thank you! LaSaltarella 03:40, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi i'd really appreciate if information on chords used+ tonality could be featured in this article.unfortunately i do not have a citation source although i will try and get one as soon as possible. I have been songwriting for 5 years now and i have written many songs in the grunge style.I also have knowledge of composition from a classical point of view ( including representing chords as roman numerals) as i studied grade7 music in the Conservatory of music in Dublin and i am now studying music there for my Leaving cert.

Edit the article if you must but i'd really appreciate if this information was available for the general public to see.

If you want examples of this off the top of my head,i know that a I-bVI-IV progression can heard clearly in Nirvana's "Heart Shaped Box" at the start and throughout the first verse

and a switch in tonality from major to minor can be heard in the song "In Bloom" also by Nirvana when he sings the syllable "gain" in the line "Spring is here again"

Vinylmesh 15:54, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vinylmesh (talk • contribs) 15:47, 6 March 2007 (UTC).

Awsome, man! You exactly captured what I have tried to say with my poor english! Thank you very much! Frédérick Duhautpas 13:51, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I've got a issue of Q devoted mostly to Nirvana - should be a useful reference. "Smells Like Teen Spirit" should be another sample - it's too important to omit, but I think "Drain You", "Stay Away", "Lounge Act" or "Breed" would work well as a third sample, instead of having the three most radio-friendly as samples. I'll upload some soon. CloudNine 19:01, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately I haven't. Good idea though. CloudNine 20:30, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Greetings! In January, you participated in the discussion for the 2nd deletion nomination of Ultimate X-Men (story arcs). After two months of rewriting, reorganizing, and referencing, the article is now undergoing a WikiProject Comics peer review. Your editorial opinion would be most welcome to help us improve the article to A-class status. Thanks for your time! - fmmarianicolon | Talk 06:37, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Way to go. Sorry I haven't been much help with heavy metal music yet. The FARC of B movie has been wearing me out. But that should be over in a few days and I'll have the energy to pitch in. Best, Dan.—DCGeist 20:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Very well done with SP! it's a model article. Have you seen Radiohead has been promoted; needs a little attention, but if you have time... Ceoil 22:28, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Mmn, I was going to put up aces high, but since you asked nice. Ceoil 19:00, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd go for "Hot for teacher", Shoots and Ladders; while First It Giveth should definitely be in the article, somewhere. The NWOBHM img I'm not pushed about. Ceoil 00:06, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

		The Working Man's Barnstar
		For your amazing contributions to The Smashing Pumpkins and, somehow, rising the article to Featured Status, I hereby award you this Working Man's Barnstar for...everything! NSR77 (Talk|Contribs) 20:41, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

My neverending B movie saga has finally ended (happily). The heavy metal refs look in very good shape, so I'll focus on ce. Any areas it would be most helpful to concentrate on? Or, conversely, to avoid for now, because you're planning to do intensive work on them?—DCGeist 09:25, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Which ones were you thinking of? That article needs a LOT of work. But easy to source, at least. Ceoil 01:36, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok; I have a copy of "Never Enough", I you have difficulty citing anything. Ceoil 14:17, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

The last few sections are trivia ridden, and comprise mainly concert appearences, reissues, DVDs, minor line up changes, etc etc. Suggest that they are trimmed. Ceoil 21:52, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

He, sound like too much red wine to me. I'm using Rock's Backpages to cite the article bty, highly recommended sub-site if you haven't come accross it before. Heavy metal is quite close to closing, but I agree Guns 'n Roses need to be incorporated. Sorry for your recent difficulties below. Ceoil 22:23, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

You don't buy the English monthly music press by any chance. Last month either Vox or Mojo reproduced an outstanding 2002 interview with Smith in which he went through each of the Cure's albums, making insightful and amusing comments along the way. I had it, but passed it onto my brother; sadly a guy not in the habit of returning such things, and who lives 137 miles away. Ceoil 22:42, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I've already voted keep on the FARC page; however the content dispute needs to be resolved. My openion is that the broader view and superior refs of your version swings it, but as it became nasty I don't think its appropriate for me to switch back to that version. I'm not going to to edit the article again, and the experience has put me off FAR in general. My tactic at this stage is to live and let live, and I'm avoiding pages where I'm likely to knock across DR, as I really do not want to see a year long block for him. Regardless of our protracted history, he's as addicted to this website as we are, and to be fair the majority of his edits are valid and in good faith. However, <sigh> I do have sources for "Recent Trends" and "Themes", will make a last splash. Ceoil 23:40, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for using your talk as a soapbox. Anyway, the "Joy Division" cover story wasn't very good, and was really only part of the promo build up to the bio pic. Re: early Cure history, its actually quite interesting; they won a talent contest with a cynical German version of K-tel, and drank a lot. Great stuff. Ceoil 00:19, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

There is some good info on Tim Pope in this article if you want to incorporate into the Music videos section. Ceoil 23:41, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

It would be great if you could stop raping the glam metal section of the heavy metal music article which you clearly have no prior knowledge of.

First of all, the heavy metal part of the genre's influence came most prominently from Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath and Deep Purple.[3][4] Allmusic.com is right, the artists themselves who cite those bands as influences are right... you are wrong.

Second of all, stop blanking the sourced part about Judas Priest, Ozzy Osbourne and Dio experimenting with the genre. These are notable artists in the scheme of heavy metal history and notable experimentations.

Third, this junk which you keep adding, "several professional and amateur magazines devoted exclusively to the genre emerged, including Kerrang!"... is incorrect; the first ever band on the cover of Kerrang was AC/DC who are not a glam metal group, the magazine also featured info about thrash bands such as Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax [5]etc. If they were "Exclusively devoted to glam metal" then they wouldnt. So again, you are wrong.

Fourthly, the band Ratt are from San Diego, Twisted Sister are from New York.. notice how these are not "LA metal bands", mmmk? - Deathrocker 16:19, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

1. That isn't true at all, read the biographies of some of the bands; Motley Crue (alongside their glam rock influences) were influnced by Deep Purple and Black Sabbath.... that is the common influence they shared. Same with the other bands, find a single source where the bands themselves (not just 1 misinformed book) state NWOBHM as the largest influence? There isn't one.... even when you get down to Poison and Bon Jovi, the Zeppelin and Deep Purple influence is the thing which connects them all. Allmusic.com is reliable enough.

2. Ozzy Osbourne was in what is regarded as one of the first heavy metal bands, Judas Priest are one of the most well known and them experimenting with the genre is "irrelevant"? Do you even know what you're talking about?

3. The sentence was place right in the middle of the glam metal section. And as shown it isn't exclusively devoted to just heavy metal either as AC/DC, KISS and Aerosmith who featured in it many times, are just hard rock bands.

4. They played some shows in L.A. but were still a San Diego band. Sid Vicious played some shows in New York after the Pistols; that doesn't suddenly make him a "New York artist". - Deathrocker 14:05, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

You have been correct above, and sources regarding influences now have ones specifically stated from the bands themselves, Rolling Stone magazine and Allmusic.com which contradict your claims. Read WP:OWN and stop trolling. - Deathrocker 11:05, 26 March 2007 (UTC)-

Re: "trolling". Thats three WP:PAs in the last twenty minutes. Sigh. Ceoil 11:31, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello, first, I just wanted to say you did a great job puting new sources concerning the harmonic section. I will provide examples for phrygian modes (as for the moment the examples I put only apply to the aeolian mode.)But that's correct the phrygian is frequently used as well (especially in Thrash metal). Phrygians chord progressions generally revolve around the I-ii relations whereas Aeolian revolve around I-VII or I-v.

Concerning the smoke on the water song. there is some truth in what you're saying but I see two problems. Before I get into details, let me summarise them:

1. Even though the song has some Aeolian parts, it is far from being the most representative instance of Aeolian harmony

2. I regard Smoke on the Water as a hard rock song rather as a heavy metal one.

1. Aeolian harmony in the song

There are indeed parts that are aeolian, but I don’t consider Smoke on the Water as a typical aeolian example. Indeed the verses (most particularly) and the melodic lines of the solo are mostly aeolian. But the parts for which the song is the most famous for (that is to say the main riff and the chorus) are not aeolian at all.

But let me show you:

Since the tonality of the song is in G, let’s consider the aeolian mode applied to that tonality. An aeolian mode in the G tonality would be:

G -A -B flat –C- D -E flat -F -G

Now let's consider the roots notes in the riff:

G –B flat- C – G- B flat- C#- C ….

Note the notes in bold:

Note that C# (even if ones writes it Db enharmonically) doesn’t belong to the natural aeolian mode (which doesn’t have any C# or Db). As you can see above the Aeolian only implies natural C and D (not with sharp or flat.). This C# is actually a blue note. There's no blue note in the natural aeolian mode.

Plus the power chord of this C# also implies a A flat (=G#) in its constitution, which is also alien to the Aeolian mode in G.. as you can see the mode only implies a natural G or a natural A (but no G sharp or A flat)

So yes Blackmoore was one of the first to imply Aeolian colour in heavy metal music but this song isn’t the most representative of it if you ask me. As only the verse uses a typical aeolian chord progressions.

I sure can mention it, but I’m afraid this would be misleading because the riff is so famous, and even if I mention the verse example, many people might understand that this is the riff which is aeolian.

2. Smoke on the water is a hardrock song

I guess we are here again in the same potential misunderstanding concerning the difference between HR and HM. Of course I know in some circumstances they may be regarded as synonymous. But as Heavy metal, I’m referring to the pure heavy metal whereas Hard rock is still rooted in rhythm and blues. The harmonic definition I’ve made was referring to pure Heavy metal only.

Rhythmically speaking Smoke on the Water doesn’t have the typical groove of heavy metal. It’s rather a hard rock groove. And it doesn’t use any pedal point.

I'm not saying that Deep Purple didn't play some heavy metal songs ( For example Highway Star song is an early example of Heavy metal song with the specific grove and the pedal point) but Smoke on the water in particular isn't a heavy metal song.

Anyway if you absolutely want to put it, I sure can give you the chord progression scheme of the riff. But I can assure you it is irrelevant with the section dealing with the aeolian section.

greetings. Frédérick Duhautpas 11:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Smoke on the water is a metal song

Ok, I’m not to deny there’s unanimous view about this.(I don't have any stats to judge that anyway). But for me unanimity has never been a rational source for providing evidences of truth. Unanimity is just a social and empiric agreement that can be used as an argument of authority to impose a view. (sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for bad ones)

Anyway I’m probably wrong but I prefer rely on my analytic tools than on unanimity. But be it! I won’t contradict that. Majority is always right! I’m not the kind to contradict unanimity and consensus.

If there’s unanimity about Earth being the centre of universe, then just like Galileo I won’t try to argue any further, even though my analytic tools prove me the contrary. Cause none can’t argue against collective agreement. Social always prevails on rational. So yes, Smoke on the Water is a metal song.

greetings

Frédérick Duhautpas 14:09, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello there, good sir. I did heed your call for The Cure pictures and I'm currently having a trawl through flickr. There are photos there, just not under the exact license we need so I'll be asking a few photographers if they wouldn't mind releasing the photos under a license that Wikipedia can use. Stay tuned! - Phorque 14:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Update: have put through a request for this photo - Phorque 14:42, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi, sorry, I may sound dumb asking this, but my english may sometimes be limited and I must admit I'm not sure to figure out what you're saying and whom you're actually talking to, here in this comment:

I want to stress this particularly. We would've saved a lot of time had you pointed out what your complaints with the section were first. I just had to go back and re-add two sources to a completely different section and fix a direct quote that was being questioned in the FAR because of the wholesale revert.

If i'm the one concerned with your complaints, well sorry...Frédérick Duhautpas 22:38, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Please stop your petty, incorrect editing to the black metal section. Return your focus to alternative rock. Isilioth 11:23, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I was referring to mainstream GENRES. There are obviously going to be 'underground' artists of every genre imaginable. Not that this matters, the fact remains that you know nothing/little about extreme metal. Isilioth 12:00, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, I don't think Smells Like Teen Spirit requires a peer review. I think it would do well if you submitted as a FAC at this point. CloudNine 08:52, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I've added what I can. Turns out it didn't have a lot about SLTS. CloudNine 14:20, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that link to "The Cannonballs Diaries". It's a good read :) CloudNine 19:15, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I think it's a good idea, and the best way to present such information. I would only include major music magazines (NME, Q, Rolling Stone, perhaps a overseas magazine or two). Interesting statistics; I never knew "In Bloom" was the 1809th most-acclaimed song of all time. :) CloudNine 12:47, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

With the "Smells Like Teen Spirit" video, I'm not sure about the quality of the video I've got access to. I'll upload an image soon; see what you think of it. CloudNine 09:59, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Uploaded an album sample; what do you think? My reading of the fair use criteria is that a live sample is acceptable - you've discussed the theme extensively in the 'Live performances' criteria; I don't see any problems. Working on uploading that video snapshot - I've not got access to a great quality video. CloudNine 21:03, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I was wondering if you might be in favor of semi-protecting the Smashing Pumpkins article for an indefinite amount of time. It seems that the pending reunion just attracts random vandals and well-meaning but ill-judged fans to add anything and everything to the article, no matter how irrelevant or trivial. Semi-protection would lockout out all editing by anons and new members, while allowing the majority of WP editors to continue to work on the article in an appropriate manner. Sound like a good idea? Girolamo Savonarola 15:50, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I have NMEs going back to april 1989, so I'll probably find some thing, in time; lots of Everett true bits and pieces. As a minor point, instead of always referring to the song as "Smells Like Teen Spirit", abreviate with "Teen Spirit". Anyway, its a great article, you should go for FAC fairly soon.

Great work on HM, bty. Did you see the recent "Daddy COOL" fiasco...Over here, we have a word for people like that: "tool". Ceoil 01:06, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I've seen your book pages before, and someday, soon...favour. Seems our friend is a, well; I'm too nice to say. Think: Somethingaboutmary. Ceoil 01:22, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I haven't read them yet, but these articles may have some useful material. Ceoil 11:22, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm thinking the Doolittle quote could be placed in the first paragraph; in fact, that's what I've done. Could you cite it? A Surfer Rosa quote might be useful in the "Critical Recognition" section, after the sentence that talks about "the best of all time album lists". Also, is there a better cite for Surfer Rosa appearing at #2 on Cobain's best albums list? Thanks! CloudNine 12:34, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that quote about the cover. Also, I'm searching for a quote about how the album title was changed from "Gigantic", but I can't find anything. Perhaps it's an urban myth. CloudNine 12:24, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I just put it in to the SP article because when I saw it on the talk page it seemed worth including. But you're right, it is more relevant to Zeitgeist; I'm moving it. And since you're a contributor on the SP page, could you take a look at this and state your opinion? Thanks. --ThrowingStick/Talk 12:56, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd just like to humbly thank you for saving this from being defeatured. Heavy metal gets neglected on Wikipedia, and it's nice to see someone do some work on them. By saving this one article you've done a lot more than 99% of the Metal Project members have done, so thanks. I hope more decent editors like yourself venture towards more Metal articles in the future. LuciferMorgan 19:38, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, that's real appreciated. NWOBHM is a cool thing to be into btw. If I need anything I'll contact you. Thinking of that, if you have any Slayer related material I know Metalhead would really be interested since he wishes to really improve more Slayer related articles. LuciferMorgan 23:23, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the offer, which i will take you up on some day when GHUA gets it's expansion :). Goodwork on Heavy Metal btw, looks a lot better. M3tal H3ad 13:02, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm unsure if I ever asked, but does any of the magazines you have copies of have any info on the song "Jihad" from Slayer's 2006 album "Christ Illusion"? Thanks in advance. LuciferMorgan 14:00, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for net getting in touch, but those three topics are definitely of interest. Could you tell me all what you have from the King columns as regards "Raining Blood", "Still Reigning" and "Disciple"? I'd be real grateful, as they may be of real use. LuciferMorgan 16:58, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

With the "Still Reigning" material, could you share it with M3tal H3ad and say I told you to get in touch? He wishes to FAC the article sometime and your information may come in handy. By the way, does "Guitar World" have a review of the DVD? If so, also forward this to M3tal H3ad. Thanks, you're giving great help! LuciferMorgan 00:16, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

May I ask why you keep reverting my edits on the List of alternative rock artists page?

Tool are not an alternative rock band. The only genres used to describe Tool are Progressive Rock and Alternative Metal. Why you think they should be listed with Alternative Rock bands like Panic at the disco is beyond me.Osmodius 22:59, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I was surprised myself actually. It took less than ten days. Anyway, I'm going to try to bring Surfer Rosa and Kim Deal to featured status, then give the Pixies a break for a while. CloudNine 07:33, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to bring the technology article (I've rewritten up to the middle of the Prehistory section, including the lead) and portal to featured status, and after that I'd like to edit Nirvana articles (and probably a few Pixies articles again :)). CloudNine 07:38, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi, sorry for taking so long to reply. I've checked my own copy of Dave Marsh's book and he doesn't actually explicitly compare the riff of Louie Louie to that of Smells Like Teen Spirit - so I got that wrong. The only reason I can think of for why I would have cited the 2004 edition is that I must have got the ISBN off Amazon. My copy was given to me in 1998 and is the first paperback edition. What Marsh does do (as you can tell) is suggest that Smells Like Teen Spirit is in some sort of mystical line of descent from Louie Louie. He fails to point out the obvious, that both songs start in very much the same way - a stop-time riff played by one instrument for a few bars, followed by a fortissimo entry of the whole band. But that's original research on my part and therefore not something for a wiki article. Keep up the great work, btw. I can't imagine loving alternative rock as much as you obviously do but there's something inspiring about your labours nevertheless. Lexo 10:01, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

First task should be to tidy up the general formatting - merging stubby paras, completing the image captions, adding html links to web sources, delinking items such as "cockroach", "epileptic seizures" etc. I'm fine with your ref formatting bty, that was a mis-assumption on my behalf. The main problem with the prose is mixed tense; but most of the info is there. I'm slightly bogged down with two FARs, and it will probably be mid week before I give it a serious effort. But I would dearly love to see this band on the FA page. I don't want to turn the alt project into an emergency task force, but I think the effort is worth it in this instance. Ceoil 10:03, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Nominate. Ceoil 14:12, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Would you be able to to take a look at What You Waiting For? and do some copyediting? It has received some support at [[Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/What You Waiting For? |its FAC]], so I know it's no lost cause, but I think it needs some fresh eyes, and you've done a really nice job putting Smells Like Teen Spirit together. I put in a request at WP:LoCE, but last time I did that with Love. Angel. Music. Baby., no one ever took a look at it, the FAC was closed, and the article got moved to an even longer list where it's still sitting; I'm worried that the same thing might happen with this article. ShadowHalo 04:22, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

• Great news about NO, I'll pitch in a few days, but I'm bogged down in minor projects, and am hoping to bring Three Studies for Figures at the Base of a Crucifixion to FAC by month end. It'll be in peer review in a week or so; probably I'll canvass your openion when that happens, if you don't mind.
• Thanks for the work on Butthole Surfers, won't get to it until early next week, but I'm hopeful it will pass. It looks a lot better now, after both your and DCGeist's work.
• "The wisdom of a fool won't set you free".
• Bringing Joy Division to FA would be great, and a joint project sounds like a good idea; I intend help out a bit more on the Cure, just as soon as Three Studies is out of the way. But as you say Joy Division is a few months away, and there is the small matter of This Charming Man. Ceoil 19:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Bty, Alternative rock is a very possible FAC. It's in rude health as it stands, and it would be very easy to cite and expand further. Ceoil 19:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

• I do, I will. Ceoil 23:40, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I see you've had a recurrence of that malignant tumor. I guess it's not surprising it would strike there next.

Concerning an older matter, do you have Template:Punkbox on your watchlist? That DyK is still doing his thing.—DCGeist 19:32, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

"Just Like Heaven" did spend one week in the top 40 (on the issue marked Jan 9, 1988). Teemu08 14:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to not reply earlier regarding Deathrocker—I've been away. Has the situation calmed? Marskell 16:13, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Have been unable to find anything on that either. Do you know if its worth tracking down? Most NME single reviews are quite short -5 or 6 sentences. There are a few libraries that will scan the article and email you a pdf, but it usually expensive enough and takes a few weeks. Ceoil 21:45, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

It ain't available online, as far as I can see, so I mailed a few libraries asking for that and the Sounds review. Found some '87 era stuff that may be useful for the main Cure article, though I haven't read it all yet. Ceoil 21:02, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Got both. Expecting pdfs mid week. Yey! Ceoil 21:48, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

The Alternative music WikiProject Newsletter Issue 1 - April 2007
"There are shitloads of meaning in the songs. I don't know what they mean, but there's still meaning there." - Liam Gallagher Project news Doolittle (album), "Smells Like Teen Spirit", Surfer Rosa, Adore (album) and "Bam Thwok" all reached featured article status in the past month! Well done to WesleyDodds, Brandt Luke Zorn and CloudNine. We've now written more featured articles in the past month than in the year to April. Portal:Alternative music achieved featured portal status, thanks to Teemu08 and CloudNine. More editors are needed to keep the portal up to date. We collaborated on Red Hot Chili Peppers, Zen Arcade, Radiohead and New Order during the past month. Kate Bush, Butthole Surfers, "Today (song)", Californication (album) and "Tonight, Tonight" reached good article status.	New members Swidden, CattleGirl, UncleMontezuma, Dark Devil, RedHotRageSlave, Kudasai, Sjones23, Triviumchick1990 and Mr Richardson joined the alternative music ranks during April. Editors User:CloudNine
To stop receiving this newsletter, or to receive it in a different format, please list yourself in the appropriate section here.

Delivered by CloudNine 17:39, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Depeche Mode have zero credibility here. They are not featured in the press, are not played on the radio, and do not chart. The only time they cropped between now and the early 80s was when whats his face took drugs. Oddly the Germans love them, and thats probably because they don't understand the words; but you guys have no excuse. There are a couple of things I can't figure out about America; its poor health service, strange spelling habits, the way it elected George Bush, twice, and gave Seinfeld a career in television, as well as its adoption of Depeche Mode. I would say they are New Romantics in leather trousers!

One of my earlies memories was seeing them on Top of the Pops miming to master and servant, c. 1983. I formed an impression of them that night, and it hasn't changed since. Whatever, if you want to work on the article, I'll help out.

By the way New Order is proving very difficult to source. Ceoil 22:08, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Re: "refusing to do interviews"; yep, thats what I thought too. Bty did you ever see Viz comic's satirasation of NO: "a bunch of pretentious pricks too sensitive and self-obsessive to explain their sub-Joy Divison wankery". Viz is great, I highly recommend a visit to your local comic book store guy. Ceoil 23:26, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

"the clamor of pedantry". uuff, I'll shut up about it so ;). Ceoil 20:02, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

First of all, thanks - a lot - for your work with "Today". Two things: First, I was hoping that sometime in the near future you could help with the composition portion of "Tonight, Tonight", which as an article is more lacking in quality than "Today"; Second, what do you think that "Today" would need in order to be featured? --Brandt Luke Zorn 00:51, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Wesley, if you have some time could you please leave some comments on the FAC for the musician Bradley Joseph. It's only got two replies in almost a month :\ and i was hoping you could add to it, as you do lots of work with muscian related articles. If you're busy then no problem, thanks. M3tal H3ad 13:48, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I briefly looked at Today, it's pretty much ready for FAC i believe. Although it's not at FAC could you take a look at God Hates Us All?, and if anything from the guitar world issue is worthy for inclusion, thanks M3tal H3ad 14:22, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! :), i will add that stuff about Tom under his section in lyrical themes. I guess something specific would be any mention of the delays/bans?, apparently Wal-mart banned it because of the original cover, but i can't find a decent source. M3tal H3ad 10:33, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Is there anything about the song "Disciple"? It's the main song off the album, but currently there isn't enough material at hand to warrant an article creation. Thanks for your time. LuciferMorgan 14:32, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I do indeed have Scar Tissue. I actually wouldn't mind grabbing it out and writing a prose for the article. However it won't be anytime this week. It'll have to wait until the weekend (most likely Sunday). I am, however, willing to provide some small tid-bits during the week, but that will most likely be all I can get to. Contact me if you need anything else. Regards, NSR77 ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 23:59, 29 April 2007 (UTC)