User talk:The Keymaster/Archive 1

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Archive 1

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This help request has been answered. If you need more help, you can ask another question on your talk page, contact the responding user(s) directly on their user talk page, or consider visiting the Teahouse.

I need an expert opinion on a number of ongoing edits that are happening on the Devo album pages. An editor, in addition to not adhering to basic MOS:ALBUM style concepts (like italicization, quotation marks, capitalization), has also created and continues to add to absolutely exhaustive "Tour" sections, with information taken from what is basically a bootleg site. Additionally, they have been adding percentage calculations to the sections, tallying how many songs were performed from each album, how many were performed from prior set lists, etc. Here is an example. Most of this information seems extremely superfluous, the sourcing is dubious and it definitely clutters the pages, in my opinion. Are these edits acceptable and, if not, how should this be dealt with? Thanks.—The Keymaster (talk) 05:37, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

You can't use the {{help}} templates to solicit allies for a content dispute, but I can advise you on things you can do. If you disagree with the direction another editor is taking with a page, by all means bring it up as a discussion on the article talk page or, sometimes, on the user's talk page. This way they can discover that not everyone agrees with what they are doing. When you see edits that are poorly sourced, you can undo them and, again, explain the reasoning in either a detailed edit summary or a talk page discussion. Some of these things may fall into the category of fancruft, which you can explain to the other editor, perhaps suggesting that they take their enthusiasm to Fandom or some other site more appropriate for this level of detail. Finally, if you do want to recruit allies, you may want to go to the talk page of the relevant WikiProject and ask for a second opinion about the overall direction of a set of edits. — jmcgnh^{(talk) (contribs)} 05:56, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

I noticed you've interest in Devo and have edited their entry recently. I wanted to let you know about a new short documentary on the band and their gear. Mark Mothersbaugh gives a tour through their studio. Might be of use for a reference or external link.

http://www.motherboard.tv/2010/4/21/electric-independence-inside-devo-s-ufo-studio-they-whip-it-new-wave-but-with-new-hats

Thanks for you editing efforts! CorridorX (talk) 14:07, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

hi! sorry for any confusion. i removed that section because it consists of original research and completely lacks citations...not because i disagree with the one fact about edith head. (although that one seems to be especially original research!) anyway, most of that content seems to be non-notable anyhow. preferably we can avoid an edit war here, but, in all that section is very scattered and not very encyclopedic (or verifiable), so i don't think it belongs. ~ Boomur [talk] 23:42, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

(i might find occasion to quote WP:V: "Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it." ~ Boomur [talk] 23:52, 3 August 2013 (UTC))

okay, sorry for going ahead before getting a response, but i think i've found a happy medium. per WP:OR, i've moved some of the "attributable" information to "song origins", and deleted what could not be confirmed by a reliable published source at this time. perhaps deleting the entire section was a bit rash, but as i said in my original edit summary, it was only a temporary solution so that the information could be restructured and stripped of any unverifiable content. ~ Boomur [talk] 00:12, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

You conveniently ignored many pieces of information in the article that have no source, such as the line about songs first surfacing on Dial-A-Song. If you are going to complain about all facts being verifiable, you should have to add sources for your claims as well. The fact that "Edith Head" has the same music bed as the Mink Car version and that many of these songs are Factory Showroom outtakes have been long established facts in the TMBG community for over a decade. The latter was even mentioned in the Info Club newsletter from summer of 1999. If you want to be pedantic and include a source for every single piece of info in the article (many of which are easily verifiable via TMBW), I can do that, but it will take a while. I will continue working on this. The Keymaster (talk) 00:23, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

whoa hey, i am not trying to be hostile here! as i said, TMBW is not an acceptable source for Wikipedia, per WP:RS (this was also discussed in a recent DYK related to TMBG). the first three sentences (including the Dial-A-Song facroid) in the "song origins" section are actually all traceable to the Westnet interview with John Linnell. here's a quotation: "As a sort of 'premium' Dial-A-Song compilation, Long Tall Weekend collects unreleased studio material that, taken together, stands up as well as any other TMBG release. It's full of surprises -- from the longtime Dial-A-Song favorites 'Dark and Metric' and 'Token Back to Brooklyn'...". sorry if that was unclear. i'm not trying to be pedantic. not every piece of information needs a direct verifiable source, but if it is open to challenge, then it does. this is not a rule i made up, it's Wikipedia policy. sorry for any inconvenience. i'm quite aware that these facts are verified on TMBW and in the TMBG community, but that in itself does not make them eligible for inclusion on Wikipedia. that's why TMBW is a separate entity. ~ Boomur [talk] 00:30, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

There are MANY pieces of information you left intact that are not verified with sources. I will be removing them. Also, where is the Linnell Westnet interview? No link is provided. ~ The Keymaster (talk) 00:36, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

my bad, it's here, and i'll add it to the ref. i'm not sure what you're referring to about the unverified information? perhaps you could clarify here before an edit war ensues? i've cited all the information i added to the page, unless it exists de facto...if you'd like to challenge something i can provide sources. i'm sorry if i've created a disturbance, i think i'm missing something here...sorry! ~ Boomur [talk] 00:41, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

again, maybe you could clarify the changes you want to make prior to editing the page? Discogs is also a sort of wiki in that it consists entirely of user-generated content, and therefore it is not really a reliable source for Wikipedia. i'd like to accept the info club citation in good faith, but it's a bit vague...could you provide a scan or transcription? unfortunately, even TMBW doesn't list any info club entries from 1999 (if you have some i'd urge you to add them there as well!). ah, i think i've found the entry to which you refer; however, it does not list all the tracks you mentioned...i'll make the appropriate change. ~ Boomur [talk] 01:01, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, what IS an acceptable discography source for you? There are other facts contained in the article that only cite Wikipedia itself as a source. (For example, linking to the No! page to verify that "The Edison Museum" was reissued on that album.) I just think you are being needlessly pedantic. You are the first person in 12 years that has suggested that "Edith Head" is a complete re-recording or that half of this album isn't Factory Showroom outtakes. The Info Club newsletter may not be online (or it might be hiding somewhere...hopefully), but it made a lot of this stuff common knowledge back in 1999. I have a transcription sitting right here in front of me. (I made a CD-R of the album and created my own liner notes from it.) Come to think of it, I believe there was a similar press release for Mink Car that talked about each track, including "Edith Head". I will have to search my archives at a later date. ~ The Keymaster (talk) 01:12, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

er, as previously stated, some things, like which songs were on which albums, can be accepted de facto (again, see WP:OR for a much better clarification of what i'm trying to say). you can find a list of good sources for discographical information here (note Discogs is listed in "sources to avoid"). i'm not arguing about whether or not "edith head" was re-recorded, i'm saying that there is no verifiable source for this information besides the "fan community", which can't be cited. also, i think you're referring to A Song-By-Song Drive-Through Of Mink Car, which doesn't actually make any reference to ltw. ~ Boomur [talk] 01:20, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

So you accept those "de facto" yet remove mention that "Lullaby" had already appeared on Hello the Band, an easily verifiable fact? You are being hypocritical. And yes, you did argue about "Edith Head" being re-recorded. As you said, "edith head is definitely different instrumentation: the bug-eating at the end is a giveaway. they're also in different keys." Not even close to being accurate. I will continuing revising. ~ The Keymaster (talk) 01:27, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Also, the "Song By Song Drive Through" isn't the source I was referring to.~ The Keymaster (talk) 01:29, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

i didn't actually remove the mention of "lullaby to nightmares" having been previously released, although i suppose i made it a little more vague? i don't really think that detracts from anyone's understanding of...anything, but i apologise if you disagree on that count. sorry, i was being unclear again: yes, i previously argued that "edith head" was re-recorded, but to be quite honest it's irrelevant to the current discussion. right now, my argument is that it is not possible to verify the extent to which "edith head" was re-recorded, because no verifiable source ever makes reference to it. therefore, it does not belong on Wikipedia. please clarify what you are going to "revise" before doing so. i do not understand your intent here. my only problem with the information you are adding is that it is not verified. i am not personally challenging the truth of the information. i agree that long tall weekend is mostly fs outtakes. but, again, i can't stress this enough, "Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it." this information cannot be verified. it is original fan research. i apologise if this has come across as a personal attack, as that was never my intention, but please follow Wikipedia's policies. ~ Boomur [talk] 01:36, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

You removed the original release source of "Lullaby" ("Hello the Band" EP), even though it is de facto information. And "Edith Head" is entirely relevant, as it was the first piece of information that you removed, which started this mess. You ask for verification before revising your words but did not afford me the same luxury. Notice that you are the first person to argue with me in the many years I've been here. I stand by my assessment: you are being both pedantic and hypocritical. I'm done. ~ The Keymaster (talk) 01:48, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

hi, i just wanted to notify you that i opened a request for a third opinion on the above discussion so that we can resolve this debate without bias. ~ Boomur [talk] 01:44, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Don't bother. I no longer wish to discuss this with you. ~ The Keymaster (talk) 01:48, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

And I will no longer revise this page...or any TMBG page, for that matter. Knock yourself out. ~ The Keymaster (talk) 01:50, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

i want to stress that i had absolutely no intention of deterring constructive edits, and i did not mean to contradict the factuality of your contributions — they are just not verifiable pieces of information. i truly hope that you will reconsider. it is important to mind Wikipedia policy (not that i'm an expert therein) when editing any part of the wiki...not only TMBG articles. i apologise for any misunderstanding or unintended hostility. ~ Boomur [talk] 01:57, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

3O Response: Sorry to see that Keymaster does not want to consider a 3O. It has been removed from the listing. (BTW, I am not watching this page or the article.) – S. Rich (talk) 06:19, 4 August 2013 (UTC) .

Just thought I'd point out that the parenthetical "(Help is on its Way)" from "Hold on Girl" was added on the The ★ Collection: 25th Anniversary Edition album which was released in the United Kingdom. ― C.Syde (talk | contribs) 07:42, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I found that after some digging. However, one exception 25 years later isn't enough to change the title that has appeared on the vast majority of releases. - The Keymaster (talk) 07:47, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Please don't remove spoilers. Wikipedia isn't the IMDb, and we don't censor spoilers. See WP:SPOILER. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 03:47, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

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