User talk:OwenBlacker/Archive 16

This page is a chronological archive of past discussions from User talk:OwenBlacker for the period January – December 2020. In order to preserve the record of past discussions, the contents of this page should be preserved in their current form. Please do not make new edits to this page. If you wish to make new comments or re-open an old discussion thread, please do so on the User talk:OwenBlacker page. If necessary, copy the relevant discussion thread to the User talk:OwenBlacker page and then add your comments there.

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please switch tatweel extension character to zero width joiner in template "Arabic alphabet Nastaliq shapes". Your template {{Arabic alphabet Nastaliq shapes| }} doesn't work, i tried to make a simple change to this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_(letter) but i found i couldn't just type zero width joiners instead of extension characters because it was made with a template, then i found that template was made with your template. Then i found your template was far too complicated to edit. Can you please switch the extension character to zero width joiner. U+0640 tatweel only works in Naskh fonts, in nastaliq it doesn't connect properly and often ends up looking like the letter is crossed out, or just generally makes it confusingly illegible. Irtapil (talk) 02:48, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Hi, when you add {{lang}} to Babel userboxes, could you please use |italic=no? Upright font is the expected behaviour of these templates that are standard on hundreds of Wikimedia wikis. Thank you, —Kusma (t·c) 12:49, 15 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Why are you modifying tons of articles, adding a link to an article that doesn't exist? Robman94 (talk) 13:12, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Robman94:

A red link, like this example, signifies that the linked-to page does not exist—it either never existed, or previously existed but has been deleted. It is useful while editing articles to add a red link to indicate that a page will be created soon or that an article should be created for the topic because the subject is notable and verifiable. Red links help Wikipedia grow.^[1]
— WP:REDLINK

Also:

Create red links everywhere they are relevant to the context for terms that should exist in the encyclopedia.
— WP:REDYES

I was watching the first episode of a Lenny Henry documentary series last night (about race in British comedy, it's worth a look; here's The Guardian's review) and noticed Black Theatre Co-operative doesn't have an article (and should). I'm in the middle of a bunch of other stuff atm, so I'm not likely to create an article just yet, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't redlink it in the mean time. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk; please {{ping}} me in replies) 13:35, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There's really no reason to add tons of red links if you're not likely to create an article anytime soon, as they're likely to get deleted because it doesn't look good to have red links in articles. On the other hand, if you do create an article, then please add as many links as you can. Btw, are you associated with CapnZapp, as he seems to be following you around adding "now known as NitroBeat" (also a redlink) to all of your BTC mentions. Robman94 (talk) 14:30, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Robman94: No, no connection to @CapnZapp:, though I did point him to this conversation, subsequently. To answer your claim that "there's really no reason", though, I refer you back to the quotes I posted from WP:REDLINK. "It doesn't look good" isn't a reason to remove links to potential articles that would be notable. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk; please {{ping}} me in replies) 16:47, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Robman94: Actually, OwenBlacker is right - nothing wrong with creating red links, as long as they're credible as future articles. The "they look bad so we delete them" may be common opinion, but that just isn't the policy. OwenBlacker is not obliged to create the article within a certain time, or even at all. Obviously, the longer they stay red, the higher the risk the phrase is delinked by a future well-meaning editor. But if you delink them you must be prepared to argue the destination actually isn't a likely article if anyone contests you. Just the fact the link is red is not a valid reason. CapnZapp (talk) 22:22, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have no connection to OwenBlacker, btw, I just noticed he added a red link over at Dido Elizabeth Belle, became curious, found out its an old name for a theatre company called NitroBeats (or NitroBEATS), and edited the passage. Then, for consistency, I repeated that edit wherever I could find it. I did not initially notice all these links were brand new. It's not that I have any particular knowledge here - I just assume that any future article is likely to be created at (or moved to) the current name. Obviously the other option (to leave the Black Theatre Co-operative link) works too, because if that link becomes a redirect that's fine too. I won't stand in the way of consensus. CapnZapp (talk) 22:22, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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See my fix and edit reason at Camille Vidal-Naquet, thanks. Kingsif (talk) 18:12, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Kingsif: The lang tagging is appropriate, per MOS:LANG and elsewhere. I mistakenly put italic=no when I meant italic=yes, but I corrected that and you reverted both the error and the correction. I have restored the corrected version, which has both language-tagging and italics, as is intended and per the Manual of Style. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk; please {{ping}} me in replies) 19:05, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You're wrong. A film title is a name, a proper noun, and should not be treated as a common noun. If someone's given name is French you don't put it in italics. Reverting your mistake. Sauvage should be in italics because it is a film title, not because it is in French. If it were a short film and originally stylized not in italics, it would not be in italics. That was my point. See MOS:FILM for its sections on naming and italics. Kingsif (talk) 19:17, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Kingsif: You're missing the point. it would be (and is) in italics because it is the name of a film. That is not under dispute here. However it is also a French word and, as such, should be language tagged. The rules around italicisation of foreign terms don't override the italicisation of the film title, as you correctly state.

But I'm not unitalicising anything. I'm (correctly) leaving the italics as-is and (correctly) tagging the French term as being in French.

If it were a term that should not be italicised (like a song title, for example), then it should still be language-tagged, but we would use |italics=no to prevent the italicisation.

Does that make sense? — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk; please {{ping}} me in replies) 19:25, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I know you're not unitalicizing anything. I never said that, in fact, the opposite. I'm trying to explain that it should not be language tagged, italics regardless. Did you really not understand when I explained that it's a proper noun or do you not understand the function of a proper noun? Or do you go around language-tagging "Emanuel Macron" when you see it, too? Sauvage should not be treated as a French term, as you put it, because it isn't, it's a film title, something that follows its own style guide, no matter what you think of it. Or think about it this way: I work extensively on foreign-language film and related articles and you are the only editor I've ever encountered who thinks the titles should be language-tagged; even consider the purpose of language-tagging, and then that a film title never needs translation to be understood and is never contextualized regarding language or definition (since it has none). Please self-revert yourself on this article and everywhere else you've made the same erroneous edits, or I'll have to take it further to correct you without going over 3RR. Kingsif (talk) 20:47, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Kingsif: I'm afraid you are mistaken — the purpose of language-tagging is not about "needing translation to be understood". Quoting from MOS:LANG:

Rationale: {{lang}} enables speech synthesizers to pronounce the text in the correct language.^[1] It has many other uses; see Template:Lang/doc § Rationale for a comprehensive list of benefits.

Indeed, the example used in MOS:LANG is Assemblée nationale, a proper noun. These edits are not erroneous; that you have not seen language-tagging like this before is a symptom of the poor catering for accessibility across Wikipedia. All instances of foreign-language words should be language-tagged, per MOS:LANG. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk; please {{ping}} me in replies) 22:20, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(PS: It's getting late here, so I'm about to log off for the night; I'll be back tomorrow, UK time.)

I've tried to explain, but perhaps this should go to a film-based RfC. I believe you're wrong, given the purpose of film titles which can easily be gibberish and should never be automatically assumed to mean/be what the word would literally mean/be. I also think it's been quite rude of you to keep reverting the article to a disputed version while discussion is ongoing, but at least it doesn't change the appearance for readers. Since even reason won't convince you, someone else needs to make the decision for you to stop you from erroneously insisting that film titles should be treated as foreign words. Shall we open a discussion at a film talkpage? And if such a discussion recommends that language tags are used for film titles... well, that would be a lot of pages to amend, but I'd help you work through the list. Kingsif (talk) 00:37, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Kingsif: I don't understand what you think the downside is here. This isn't a film issue, it's an accessibility issue — adding language tags to foreign words means that assistive technologies such as screenreaders can know how to pronounce the words. For film titles that are gibberish then obviously they wouldn't get tagged (there's nothing to tag them with), but when the title is a word in a human language then yes, it should be tagged, just as other foreign words should be. This isn't "reason not convincing me" — I'm following the Manual of Style here and you are advocating not doing so. Have you read the appropriate MoS sections (MOS:LANG, WP:MOS#Titles of works, MOS:FOREIGNITALIC) and the rationale for language-tagging? I don't understand why you think certain instances of foreign words should defy the MoS to the detriment of accessibility, when there is no downside to doing so. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk; please {{ping}} me in replies) 08:58, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

My main concern was editors looking at the interface interpreting film titles as words to be translated, and assuming that film titles should not be in italics if not originating from foreign words. There's no way to resolve those concerns when using the template. Read the film MOS, because this is a film title issue, not your language style guide, as I've said. Film titles shouldn't be treated as foreign words, no matter what: film titles sometimes even can reflect foreign words but be intended as gibberish, also as I've said already. Kingsif (talk) 13:18, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Kingsif: Aaah, I think I might have understood where this disconnect in our conversation is. Template:Lang is nothing to do with Content translation; the use of {{lang}} is not indicating that content should (or could) be translated. Indeed quite the opposite: when text is put through the Content translation tool, the content within {{lang}} should not be translated. The purpose of Template:Lang (and language-tagging on the Internet more generally) is to help assistive technology know how to present content to users (so using a voice that understands how to pronounce French spelling or the different Braille rules for example) and how to handle things like hyphenation and quote marks. Please go read the rationale for language-tagging, so you can see what I'm talking about, as it seems that you have misunderstood the purpose of language-tagging altogether. There is no downside to language-tagging content; this isn't causing some harm that needs mitigation.

And, to be clear, this is not a film-title issue and it's not "my language style guide". I'm referring to the Wikipedia:Manual of Style on the rules that all content on the English Wikipedia must abide by. It is no more optional than the rules about article titles and the formatting of titles of works. Film titles are not being treated as foreign terms that should be translated and the italicisation caused by {{lang}} does not change the rules around italicising other film titles. There is no conflict in the rules here and editors working on articles are still expected to understand the guidelines around the content in question — be that WikiProject Films guidelines, WP:BLP guidelines or whatever. And, as I have already said, film titles that are gibberish — and other instances of nonsense word — should not be language-tagged; for a film where the title is intended as gibberish, I would expect it not to be tagged. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk; please {{ping}} me in replies) 13:57, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think you've fundamentally misunderstood some of my comments (e.g. I clearly said "read film MOS [...] not your language [MOS]", but you interpreted the end of that sentence to be me insinuating you had invented your own style guide...), as you responded about a content translation tool when I was referring to human editors seeing a template forcing italics because of language and thereby assuming film titles in English don't need italics. If you can assure me there won't be confusion, and it's easier to approach this from a perspective not understand every line about language-tagging (if you want my full knowledge, I have come across lang tags almost exclusively in article leads and so have added it myself to the lead with translations, but nowhere else), then leave as it is. But if you can imagine editors seeing lang template=italics, so no lang template=no italics, perhaps there's something needs to be done. Kingsif (talk) 14:09, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Kingsif: Ah, it seems like I have misunderstood you then 😊 I've never seen anyone confusing italicisation rules as a result of language-tagging before and it doesn't seem to me to be any more of a problem than users not realising that titles need italicising at all, surely? Would it be helpful for us to make a change to the section of Template:Lang/doc that talks about automatic italics, maybe? Fundamentally, new editors are likely to make bad assumptions that we more-experienced editors can correct them on, so I don'think any solution will ever be perfect. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk; please {{ping}} me in replies) 14:40, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If the documentation doesn't already mention something about the italics it would be wise, though it still makes me uneasy to consider a film title as a conventional word. If necessary, the accessibility aspects could be updated to mention language in the film MOS. Kingsif (talk) 15:09, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]