User talk:ClemRutter

Dear ClemRutter,

Sorry for the many edits and re-edits to the Reclining-Declining Sundials paragraph.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundial#Reclining-declining_dials

But I think that I've now got the right formulas now for the gnomon angles at last. Where do I get them ? I derived them - not by any fancy means like rotation matrices or quaternions; but rather through good old-fashioned 3-D Euclidean geometry. By this I mean that I constructed physical models of the reclining-declining dial geometry using cardboard sheets for planes and strips of wire for optical paths and pertinent geometry lines/angles. I chose to do it this way as :

1) The results are far more concrete and convincing when this method is employed. This is particularly true in the reclining-declining dial case as there are many different formulas published for its hour angle and its gnomon angles.

2) The people who build these dials will generally come from a trades background. This means that they would generally have begun apprenticeships at 16 - 17 and their math level will be up to UK GCSE/O-level or French Brevet standard -- i.e. Euclidean geometry, basic trigonometry and basic algebra. My method is followable by people at this standard.

In due course I plan to submit a paper on this method - as well as the relevant diagrams (using Google SketchUp) for the vital geometrical relationships - to the North American Sundial Society.

The ${\displaystyle s_{o}}$ orientation switch integer for generalizing the hour angle formula over all dial declinations is the only 'novelty' added to the existing nomenclature. I find it handy when programming.

If you have any points to make on the actual formulas presented in Wiki by me or want to offer alternatives for discussion, please feel free.

Tamjk (talk) 10:52, 10 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I am enjoying the links personally but having difficulty in seeing how all this can be justified under WP:NOR. I would be inclined to keep the published sources (right or wrong) and include the improvements (unpublished corrections wrapped in a {{efn}} template that links to the {{notelist}} footnote. Rest assured I accept your maths as being superior.

What I was about to do was to change all the notation which I got from Waugh, Mayall & Mayall to the agreed symbols used by and recommended by the BSS- but that is also on hold while I sort out a useable python library.

It is interesting that fr:Cadran incliné-déclinant doesnt exist but all other types fr:Cadran déclinant have separate page- I haven't analysed which notation convention they are using- but I suspect that even there they are excluded most readers by using Greek letters which are not taught at brévet/ GCSE level.

Many thoughts - much to do -- Clem Rutter (talk) 11:34, 10 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there's no original research here. Simply the same results via a more traditional and more workmanlike method. The hour angle formula is the same (bar using reclination angle instead of inclination) as those presented by Snyder and others :

http://dls-website.com/documents/SundialDesignConsiderations.pdf

The gnomon angle formulas are the same as those presented in the BSS Formulae webpage, at least the dial-plate angle (the "style height" in BSS parlance) once you allow for their defining inclination w.r.t. the rear horizontal rather than the front (i.e. sun side) horizontal.

http://www.sundialsoc.org.uk/Glossary/equations/equations-new.php

Unfortunately they have the substyle-noon angle wrong - but so did all of us originally.

Tamjk (talk) 16:10, 10 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. I've now completed changing the Greek nomenclature to Roman. Tamjk (talk) 14:05, 18 April 2014 (UTC)mmm[reply]

Hi Mr Rutter. It seems that I owe you an apology for having given you so much grief by way of other posters rejecting my hour-angle formulae ! But I shall make no apology at all for the hour-angle formulae themselves. I am confident that they are correct since I derived them two ways - and moreover since they square with those of Snyder [ref. above], allowing for his nomenclature definition. The gnomon-plate and the substyle-noon angles are also consistent with those quoted in some other sources. LIkewise with the critical angle expression for the reclined-declined dial. I'd intended putting out a paper detailing my derivations but other obligations intervened. Hopefully this summer.

May God give you strength in your thankless task here.

Tamjk (talk) 18:27, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As you are a previous editor of City of Adelaide (1864), you may be interested in the Style Proposal on Talk:City of Adelaide (1864)
ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 22:11, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hello ClemRutter, please look at the Discussion page of Corliss steam engine ... Maybe we can find a solution to the images. --Metilsteiner (talk) 19:24, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It was good to meet you at the London meetup today. The article I mentioned, which uses one of your photos, is wrap reel. I am generally interested in textile topics so will look out for you in this area now. Andrew D. (talk) 22:19, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Clem. I've corrected a minor typo (which was nothing to do with the work you're doing). I have also changed the nested sfn to an efn for the note with an sfn for the citation. I think it makes more sense, but if you disagree you know where the revert mechanism is. I'm guessing you're still working on this, so I'll leave the cite error alone for a while. Thanks and regards, Martin of Sheffield (talk) 23:26, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I was just doing some of the donkey work then going to message you to ask your opinion- I stop now and let you have a go with the hard ones. I was on the page due to a comment at the London Meetup that there were no articles on Workhouses.(not true but nearly so). All Saints Hospital was the former Chatham Workhouse and in chasing Strood Workhouse on Gun Lane- I found Richard Watts Charities. -- Clem Rutter (talk) 23:42, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not a problem, I just didn't want to interfere unduly with your constructive work. The article is one I worked on quite a time ago, 2013 was only when it split from Richard Watts. That was only a stub back in 2011 when I started on it, but I inherited the citations. I agree they could do with a refresh - this seems like a discussion & consensus so with your help I'll be WP:BOLD! :-) Martin of Sheffield (talk) 21:44, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Martin of Sheffield (talk) 23:06, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Hallo Clem, I've found a batch of your museum stubs filing under "X" in Category:Stubs - don't forget to fix the DEFAULTSORT, rather than leave it at the default XXXXX of your pattern. All the best, PamD 23:54, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

yes, I just do it to get noticed. Oops you are not supposed to use humour! Nice to hear from you. -- Clem Rutter (talk) 00:06, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am new to Wikipedia editing and seek assistance from someone more experienced to help guide me in improving the article about Manchester Grammar School. You have kindly made a large number of superb edits on the Manchester Grammar School article I wondered if you might be able to help me. As Head of Computing at this school I have a vast amount of 'original research' knowledge and wish to learn how to translate this into 'allowed content' bearing in mind the strict NOR and COI guidelines. In particular there are many sections in the article that require citations, and some existing citations that no longer work as the main school website has been changed recently and now has much reduced content. Also there is little currently published online about the school that relates to much of the existing content. The main school website at www.mgs.org is not something under my control, but I am the webmaster of the official school Virtual Learning Environment at www.mgscentral.org and therefore could place accurate content about the school on that site that could be cited on Wikipedia. I believe that under existing Wikipedia COI rules this may be deemed OK, but it is an area about which I have failed to find clear guidance on Wikipedia. Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated.Serendipityrules (talk) 12:26, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'll reply on your talk page.-- Clem Rutter (talk) 00:14, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Just wanted to say thank you so much for your swift, considered and detailed response to my request. Outstanding.Serendipityrules (talk) 12:34, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The tone of that article is all wrong, it is too long and reads like a prospectus. There is much dead wood to chop out, I cut off a little bit. J3Mrs (talk) 17:58, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Thank you for your recent articles, including Tyskie brewing museum, which I read with interest. When you create a new article, can you add the WikiProject assessment templates to the talk of that article? See the talk page of the article I mentioned for an example of what I mean. Usually it is very simple, you just add something like {{WikiProject Keyword}} to the article's talk, with keyword replaced by the associated WikiProject (ex. if it's a biography article, you would use WikiProject Biography; if it's a United States article, you would use WikiProject United States, and so on). You do not have to rate the article if you do not want to, others will do it eventually. Those templates are very useful, as they bring the articles to a WikiProject attention, and allow them to start tracking the articles through Wikipedia:Article alerts and other tools. For example, WikiProject Poland relies on such templates to generate listings such as Article Alerts, Popular Pages, Quality and Importance Matrix and the Cleanup Listing. Thanks to them, WikiProject members are more easily able to defend your work from deletion, or simply help try to improve it further. Feel free to ask me any questions if you'd like more information about using those talk page templates. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 17:26, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Thanks for your reply re. this topic. I think the point we must never forget about British private schools is that although they are charities (nominally at least - but that's another matter!), they are also businesses. Therefore, they go out of their way to promote themselves. Usually they do this in several ways - not all of which are suitable for Wikipedia.

I haven't tagged all the private school articles I've looked at recently as I think some of them are alright. But it is notable that many of the state school articles (although too thin), show a completely different emphasis in their content.

I have no problem with the schools being on Wikipedia:

• As historical institutions. Many of them are old, and so of interest for that reason alone. I suppose architecture is a related subject.
• As far as alumni go, most of these schools are interested in churning out high earners in the professions. This gets reflected in many of those listed as former pupils. (A quick scout around often reveals that School X has interesting alumni who are notable in other fields, esp. the arts, but who aren't useful for advertising.)
• Some schools such as Stowe have features (grounds, buildings) which predate the school; others such as Dulwich have art collections, sculptures etc - all of these are non-academic points of interest more modern state schools tend to lack.

However, not sure what to do about the pushing of exam pass rates. As far as I'm concerned, private education uses a number of tricks to help raise these figures - scholarships being the most obvious. Third party references are better, but even then I'm sceptical.

Other traits I see in these articles, which come up again and again, are computing/science facilities (good, but how do they compare to elsewhere?), foreign pupils (Asians etc have been coming to British private schools since 19th century. Nothing new, or interesting), CCF (child soldier-y, again I think of limited interest to outsiders) and so on.-MacRùsgail (talk) 15:18, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I couldn't agree more and said something similar up the page, they are often too long and read like a school prospectus. What's encyclopedic about after school clubs, etc? J3Mrs (talk) 19:21, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is exactly it. We're not here to provide the schools with potential paying pupils, we're here to talk about points of interest about the school, which concern readers who want to research history etc.-MacRùsgail (talk) 14:58, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In agreement too. There are many sections that are toxic- but unfortunately informative. Can we roll back to the Talk:Manchester Grammar School page, where we have a new editor User talk:Serendipityrules willing to take on the task of adding verifiable facts- but wanted advice on what WP policy was on conflict of interest. After fighting the spaghetti on the CofI pages I passed on advice on the way staff members should announce them selves, which he has followed. Coming from a local government background I am familiar with the declarations of substantive/non substantive- financial/nonfinancial that councillors make. WP is far slacker.

The second interesting question is what makes a satisfactory secondary source. The line I take is that anything published in a pupils day book is a secondary source, while anything published in the staff handbook maybe. In the staff handbook, the bullying policy will be signed and dated as a text agreed and published in the governors minutes of xx-blah-blah. In a state school that is a public primary source- but I can say whether academies or private schools keep these as private document. Clarification needed- I suspect it case by case.But since I used these documents- everything has gone on line, and I haven't been able to work out whether open pages on the school intranet( different from its fundraising website) have the same status as the pupils day book. Or further what we do about the closed pages which are password protected. These pages are now just about the only thing visible about a school- save the sponsored press release.

Take for example: the ficticious Blagdon Messenger- owned by Lord Retarded, who prints good articles about Blagdon Independent School, take a look at the Governors, and see three generations of Retardeds have been chair- and the currrent Head once shared a cell with Lord Retarded half-brother when they were at Eton or Broadmoor.

School histories by a sychophantic old boy?

See WP:WPSCHOOLS/AG it does suggest what should be included but does not address the question of social class bias. Indeed I haven't ever read through it completely - I get so annoyed at the class bias in the analysis. That is another story- but is it the elephant in the room.

I go back to some useless sections- because of the nature of British Society- the chair of all major sports federations will be one of the the Eton elite. Look at the Olympic Sports-- you sure as hell are not going to succeed unless you have been coached in these after school clubs at one of these bastions of privilege. WP seems to go overboard on sporting achievement-- and music and drama, all disproportionately represented by the elite.

We need to have clear GAs for guidance- I suggested we look at Norwich School (independent school) and User:Kudpung suggested looking at Hanley Castle Grammar School (no longer independent) and Malvern College.

While I will help, as I have in the past, I am not dedicating my WPself to the cause. I do keep my offWP life separate. -- Clem Rutter (talk) 23:42, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

On my watchlist The King's School, Chester- where does one start?

AFAICS there's nothing much wrong with The King's School, Chester. Articles about schools that provide mainstream education to Grade 12 or 6th form are all perfectly acceptable whatever state they are in, but they should of course be cleaned up for neutrality (in this case schools on the Indian sub continent are the worst offenders, but that is more of an issue of the traditional use of flowery English in that region, as Western native English speakers who has lived and worked there will know). At least British schools articles do talk about what they teach - the vast majority of US school articls do nothing other than promote their sports results. As coordinator of for many years of WP:WPSCH, I beg users to turn their talents to improving really poor articles about schools rather than looking for reasons to poke holes in articles that are actually quite good, but just happen to be fee paying schools. Many school articles are a mess because they are written in good faith by the pupils, which does not necessarily mean thet they are conciously abusing our COI guidelines. One UK independent school that does need a constant watchful eye is Nottingham High School. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:59, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Be positive! Good faith IP school pupils (KS4/KS5) or in exceptional circumstance (KS3) are our bread and butter editors in 2025-30. Catch them young, have them contributing while they are writing obscure dissertations as undergrads. Have them patrolling our references- it will do their Uni marks a world of good. I would love to have one correcting my spelling and grammar.

The expectations we have for UK schools is far higher than the puff pieces we expect from over the Atlantic. Working to those higher standards, the evidence shows:

1. State schools are underrepresented- and they are the most important ones to get right.
2. There are a plethora of school types that have been created as the 1944 compromise has been unravelled
3. Private school articles, by their emphasis on flashy facilitys are playing a game with us- there is no reliable information.
4. Need to get the infobox right- for the sake of wikidata.
5. We have two new editors willing to help.

I address the problem of what our readers may want (well its a starting point). If you are a head teacher (chair of governors), you need to see how other schools are coping- the classic example is IGCSE and BTec no longer counting in the Ofsted League Tables. If you are a WP writing/reading parent you need to know what languages are taught at KS5- as this affects your choice at eleven and the feeder primary school you select at four- and ultimately where you buy a house. If you are councillor you need feedback on how you have applied the Cameron's savage cuts. Wikipedia is the Portal to all knowledge.

How do we handle this better? Do we write a series of essays on how to write an article:

• How to write the perfect Wikipedia article on a fee-paying public school:plaudits and pitfalls- a guide for governors, teachers students and interested Wikipedians.
• How to write the perfect Wikipedia article on a fee-paying private school:plaudits and pitfalls- a guide for governors, teachers students and interested Wikipedians.
• How to write the perfect Wikipedia article on a fee-paying former HMC school:plaudits and pitfalls- a guide for governors, teachers students and interested Wikipedians.
• How to write the perfect Wikipedia article on a state comprehensive school under local authority support:plaudits and pitfalls- a guide for governors, teachers students and interested Wikipedians.
• How to write the perfect Wikipedia article on a state comprehensive school with Academy status:plaudits and pitfalls- a guide for governors, teachers students and interested Wikipedians.
• How to write the perfect Wikipedia article on a selective state school with Academy status:plaudits and pitfalls- a guide for governors, teachers, students and interested Wikipedians.
• How to write the perfect Wikipedia article on a Cameron freeschool:plaudits and pitfalls- a guide for governors, teachers, students and interested Wikipedians.

These essays must be task focused and have all the relevant details transcluded onto one page- wikilinking does not work if the document is going to be printed off to be discussed at a committee. I see this as a possible.

We have a backlog of embarrassing articles- but they are all over the place. When I am in a grizzly mood I don't mind pulling an article back together, if I could select one from a convenient list. A monthly mailing of all schools/ or schools for concern listed under subheadings as Public/Private/HMC/State/Academy/CameronFree/ with a link to the relevant essay- may be a possible idea.

Now for fantasy land- as a former chair of governors (three weeks) I would be mortified to find my schools WP was not perfect. Email a RfC to each known Chair of Governors (via the LEA). Attach an essay on -How to write the perfect Wikipedia article, and ask them to agenda it. We need to have enough resources to cope with the avalanche of requests for training and Wikipedians in Residence- and the number of new editors. Be positive - and delegate. Put together the tools- a easy CoI I template, a I would expect to see template for the talkpage...

On the problems on the subcontinent we can take the same approach- when we have a working model for the UK (or vice versa).

On the tricky problem of School intranets v school websites- do you have any thoughts?-- Clem Rutter (talk) 10:43, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The one thing with a lot of state schools is that they tend to be newer, so less history, and the buildings are invariably less interesting. However, I do notice that unlike the private school articles, state school articles are pretty poor about listing alumni. I've tried to rectify this in some cases, but the simple fact is that there are so many state schools!

Regarding private school alumni, I get bored of seeing long lists of undistinguished judges and diplomats. They probably belong on either dedicated alumni lists (which I support in most cases) or in the categories. Digging around, you find out that many of these people are doing what their parents did... not much of an achievement. I'm more interested in ground-breaking novelists and painters, but they obviously don't sell a school so well! (They're often poor earners, and had colourful lives. Which interests me, but not someone trying to flog school places.)

As you've probably noticed, there's a lot of work to be done on this score. I think this needs a page of its own. -MacRùsgail (talk) 14:58, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

First, let me answer what you asked about the meridian:

Yes, the French article, if it said that string F1 lines on the meridian, must have meant "meridian-plane". String F1 lies on the meridian-plane. Of course it would be clearer just to say that string F1 lies north-south.

I checked the meridian article, and it looked ok.

No doubt you already have this information, but let me send it anyway:

For a Bifilar sundial, for latitude 51.5, with the north-south string 10 centimeters above the dial-face, the east-west string should be 7.826 centimeters above the dial-face.

Point C, where the hour-lines meet, and about which the hour-lines are drawn, at 15-degree intervals, should be 6.275 centimeters behind (north of) where the two strings intersect.

I'm assuming that south is positive for y, in the co-ordinate system.

Michael Ossipoff — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.8.169.50 (talk) 22:10, 8 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I'll make one Wednesday-- and test it when the sun returns!. -- Clem Rutter (talk) 22:24, 8 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Clem--

I've just realized that I got the directions backwards:

Point C is h2/tan(lat) _south_ of point O.

The reason why I initially told it to you backwards was because I was confusing the direction of the sun with the direction of the shadow.

Today or tonight, I'll go the Cadran Bifilaire wikipedia page, and change the places where I said the direction wrong.

I clarified the language at Cadran Bifilaire (English) a bit, wording things as they're said in English, fixing a few ambiguities.

That page didn't say the direction for positive X and Y, but it can be determined by the fact that, if C were North of O, that would mean that sometimes the intersection's shadow would be going around C in the wrong direction, anti-clockwise (counter-clockwise, as we say here). So point C must be south of point O.

Sorry about telling it backwards.

Ordinarily I write at the same topic-heading that I already started, but this time it seemed important enough to start a new topic heading, to maximize the chance of this message being noticed.

Michael Ossipoff — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.8.169.50 (talk) 21:31, 9 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Clem--

Of course the Bifilar isn't usable all day. It has that disadvantage in common with the standard flat vertical dial, the polar dial, and the nodus dial, when those dials only use one flat face.

In particular, for latitude 51.5, and with the north-south wire 10 cm above the dial-face:

At the winter solstice, in order to be usable till half an hour before sunset, a Bifilar dial would have to extend nearly 5 feet out from where the wires intersect. Obviously that dial-size isn't feasible.

So the Bifilar (like the abovementioned other dials) has an hours-usability disadvantage.

Michael Ossipoff — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.8.169.50 (talk) 17:43, 10 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Talk:Sundial#Reply_to_Clem.2C_regarding_citations.2C_glossary_violations.2C_construction-manual.2C_etc.; Thanks, a lot of thought and a lot of work! Edmund Patrick – confer 10:59, 15 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hey ClemRutter. I've put in a submission for a presentation at Wikimania 2015 called Is Two the Magic Number?: The Co-op and New Editor Engagement through Mentorship. I'll be talking about the state of finding help spaces on en.wiki and how our new mentorship space, The Co-op, factors into that picture. Reviewing will begin soon and I'll need your help to be able to present our work. Please review our proposal and give us feedback. If you would be interested in seeing this presentation, whether you are attending or not, please add your name to the signup at the bottom of the proposal (you do not need to attend Wikimania to express interest in presentations). I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} on behalf of Wikipedia:Co-op.

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Typo fixed. Thanks.-- Clem Rutter (talk) 23:11, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, we met at London 91 yesterday - I've added you to my list of Wikipedians I have met. --Redrose64 (talk) 12:33, 9 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Clem,

I hope you are well. I stumbled across a couple of Burnley area weaving videos that might interest you:

• Coloured Woven Cloth Production By Barden Mill Co., (Burnley) Ltd 1949-50
• Samuel Holden Ltd (Barrowford) 1937

Oh and this Handloom Weaver 1947-48 --Trappedinburnley (talk) 12:23, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have not seen any of them before- yes fascinating- I can think of several articles that will will host them under external links. Crude as they are, they are very complete. My latest effort has been Ellen Hooton, and this has led me to looking for illustrations of a gaited throstle frame and more particularly the Radcliffe Dandy Loom and Dandy loom sheds I can only find 4 images online so I am going to have to resort to paper! But apart from that- I am waiting to be introduced to my second grandchild- he is on his way and has an approximate eta of the 31st of March.-- Clem Rutter (talk) 22:47, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Thank you, Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 15:56, 26 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 20:29, 28 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Clem--

I've added some comments to your comments under the Reclining-Declining heading at the Sundial Talk page.

Briefly, I agree that the forumulas given in that section are unintelligible to the general reader, and amount to a cookbook-recipe construction-instruction, whose justifiction is unknown to the reader, and which therefore isn't helpful to the reader. I also discussed the section's claim that agreement on the rigt way to make a reclining-declining dial was reached only during the last decade.

Should I have, instead, started my own new heading at the bottom, instead of adding to the one that you started?

By adding my comments to your discussion heading, in the middle of the talk-page, have I buried my comments where they won't be found? Are new comments only noticed if they're under a new heading at the bottom of the talk-page?

By the way, is this the best way to communicate, or does the Wikipedia system have a messaging-system that I should be using instead?

--MichaelOssipoff (talk) 16:31, 2 April 2015 (UTC)MichaelOssipoff[reply]

Another question:

Do you have Mayall & Mayall's sundial book? If so, would you post, here (or to the Sundial article's talk page)Mayall & Mayall's Reclining-Declining formulas?

Or, if you prefer, you could post them to _my_ talk-page. But your talk-page, here, is the main place where I'll be looking, because it's probably more convenient for you to post here.

--MichaelOssipoff (talk) 19:47, 3 April 2015 (UTC)Michael Ossipoff[reply]

I am on the road- away from my books for the next two weeks. But to answer the question- yes i had one once- and I think it is on the shelf next to my two copies of Waugh. -- Clem Rutter (talk) 20:50, 3 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your reply, and thanks for taking the time to reply when you're traveling on vacation.

No hurry, whenever you have the time, after you return.

The reason why I ask: Specifically, as you probably know, the wikipedia Sundial article (under the Reclining-Declining heading) says that Mayall & Mayall, and Rohr as well, published incorrect Reclining-Declining formulas, and that, in fact, it's only during the last decade that there was agreement on the right way to make a Reclining-Declining sundial.

Those statements should be checked, and deleted if incorrect. (Of course, merely being unsupported is enough reason to not allow them at wikipedi, given that they contradict everything previously published. Notability?!).

I like sundials, and I don't like to be contentious about a subject that like. The Internet has too much contentiousness. But incorrect (or even unsupported) statements that contradict everything previously written have no place at wikipedia.

--MichaelOssipoff (talk) 13:44, 4 April 2015 (UTC)MichaelOssipoff[reply]

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-Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk), 17:50, 3 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there, any chance of cleaning this article up so it can be in WP:OTD on 17 April? Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 13:24, 12 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Clem:

You may want to look at the butchery that Michael Ossipoff (?sp) has just done to the Sundial article.

I feel like taking out a contract on that moron.

DOwenWilliams (talk) 22:15, 12 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Dave:I did a lot of correspondence on Michaels talk page see this version and I will do, what I said I would do somewhere around [1] which was to have a look at the issue when I am reunited with my books.

I am now back from doing a Wikipedia tutorial session 280 miles from here in Lancaster and doing quite a bit of photography. I have been logging in, and seen the help you have been offering Michael, but it was pointless for me to join in before I have a clear few hours to spend even to read the comments. I will come back some time tomorrow with a few ideas.

It would be great to organise a meet up sometime. -- Clem Rutter (talk) 23:51, 12 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Are you 200 miles from Lancaster, in England? I should have been born in Liverpool. but the Germans had put a time-bomb on the roof of the hospital, so my mother did a quick dash to a nursing home in West Kirby, so I was born there. But that was long ago. For the past 40+ years, I've lived here in Canada, so a meet-up would be difficult. Sorry!

I'm going to be busy for the next few days, so I won't be doing much on Wikipedia. I hope, without much confidence, that I will find it wondrously improved when I get back.

Thanks for the thanks.

DOwenWilliams (talk) 02:50, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

About the same time- my father, who had spent 6 years in the peace time RAF, was transferred to Windsor, Ontario to be trained to operate radios, navigation equiptment and fly advanced aircraft- each time being moved on to something more urgent. He missed out on rationing, austerity, bombs and things.

I have two weeks, before I must visit the Lancashire again. At worst, the article will be identical to your last edit- at best it will similar but far less verbose. Keep you posted. -- Clem Rutter (talk) 07:46, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Poor guy!

My father was in the RAF, too. He had just qualified as a doctor when war broke out. He volunteered on the first day, and was assigned as a medic on an air station. He spent the whole war on air stations around the UK, and left the RAF with the rank of Flight Lieutenant. The whole time, he never once flew in a plane. They gave him a gun, because some of his patients were German airmen who had been shot down, but they never gave him any bullets to put in it.

I see Michael has done more damage this morning.

DOwenWilliams (talk) 14:40, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Responses from MichaelOssipoff moved to User talk:MichaelOssipoff to keep the conversation in one place.

Hi Clem: I see you and Michael seem to have reached some sort of truce over the declining-reclining sundial. That's good. What else is new? DOwenWilliams (talk) 18:55, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

On the wikifront I have been over on Commons taking, tagging and uploading 300+ photos bbof the scenery around Lancaster University where I was helping at a Editathon with members of the London Mathematics Society. I think the entry requirement is 2 PhDs- which contrasts with teaching sums to 11 to 16 year olds- and Computer Science to bright but over-confident 17yr olds, who have an unshakeable belief that their POV is the only POV. We have a little lull on the Sundial page- I bought the NASS CD of previous articles and I am awaiting its arrival- it should be fun to read- and we'll never be short of a reference again.

A spin off from Lancaster were these two pages- Help:Referencing for beginners/sandbox and Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Mathematics/temp You might like to have a look at them- eventually I'd like to replace the current offerings. Then Real-life continues... -- Clem Rutter (talk) 21:19, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Mediation Committee has received a request for formal mediation of the dispute relating to "Article: Sundial. Topic Section: Reclining-Decllining.". As an editor concerned in this dispute, you are invited to participate in the mediation. Mediation is a voluntary process which resolves a dispute over article content by facilitation, consensus-building, and compromise among the involved editors. After reviewing the request page, the formal mediation policy, and the guide to formal mediation, please indicate in the "party agreement" section whether you agree to participate. Because requests must be responded to by the Mediation Committee within seven days, please respond to the request by 3 May 2015.

I have declined:

1. Disagree. WP:RFM/G#PRIOR Can I point you to the long conversation I have had with Michael on his talk page where I am attempting to keep the discussion contained. Have a look also at the conversations with User:DOwenWilliams on my talk page, and the conversation he has had with Michael in the Talk:Sundial#« Cadran bifilaire », Why ? and much that follows. None of this suggests that every other method has been explored, which is a precondition for this procedure- it does suggest a degree of impatience, and a request from Michael for two editors to enter into a considerable amount of WP:OR. If the Mediation Committee does wish to get involved so early in the process I am sure that DOwenWilliams and myself will be willing to assist in every way- but in my case after the UK General Election when I will be less occupied in RL.-- Clem Rutter (talk) 10:49, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

it is not helpful to split the conversation onto another page. The OR is coming on nicely, the CD has arrived, the address handwritten by Fred Sawyer himself. There are twenty years plus of of copies of Compendium- each one will take a month to read!-- Clem Rutter (talk) 10:49, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

although I am just about aware of the level of work this will generate I agree with you not at this moment accepting mediation. I have only had one contact with this editor ([2].) if I can assist in anyway I will try Edmund Patrick – confer 19:02, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very very much sir for respond for this I am highly obliged of you and please always keep leading as your pupil. Sturdyankit (talk) 02:10, 23 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Now on Michaels talk page. Text --108.132.238.27 (talk) 11:41, 26 April 2015 (UTC)MichaelOssipoff[reply]

Keeping it all in one place Transfered comments by 108.132.238.27 to (MichaelOssipoff's talk page (UTC)MichaelOssipoff

Thank you very much sir, Let's suppose admin decides No consensus then what happen with my article, Also here are some of Students who won scholarship from Bihar State Shia Wakf Board they are Samsha Khatun and Sadam Hussain having serial no 116378 and 116379 according to http://www.technixindia.com/wakfboard/report-phase2-1011-result.php?page=24 in 2010-11 (2nd phase) Can I add this along with my article's content? Sturdyankit (talk) 12:32, 25 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited Halton-with-Aughton, you added links pointing to the disambiguation pages Coke, Caton and Forges. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

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Hallo ClemRutter! Mal eine Frage: arbeitest Du noch am Artikel de:user:ClemRutter/sandkiste? Grüße, Doc Taxon (talk) 13:41, 5 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi ClemRutter! Do you still work on de:user:ClemRutter/sandkiste? Greetings, Doc Taxon (talk) 13:41, 5 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Clem:

I'm anticipating the results of the UK election, too. After all, I am still a British citizen. Here in Canada, we've already had one electoral shock this week, when the government of Alberta, which had been conservative for more than 40 years, was dumped down to third place, behind the New Democratic Party (roughly like UK Labour) and the Wild Rose Party, which is a rather primitive right-wing affair. (The wild rose is the provincial flower of Alberta. It grows all over the place there.)

Re the sundial article. I've been doing some edits, which you'll see in the latest version. I think my changes are worth keeping. If you put up your sndbox version, please keep my stuff about the empirical method, and also the small change to the equation of time graph.

Time to wind up my old TV set...

DOwenWilliams (talk) 23:32, 7 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know?

When you click on a link to an article, you now see more information:

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Subscribe, unsubscribe or change the page where this newsletter is delivered at Meta. If you aren't reading this in your favorite language, then please help us with translations! Subscribe to the Translators mailing list or contact us directly, so that we can notify you when the next issue is ready. Thank you! Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:31, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Listed building England has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. PC78 (talk) 17:50, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Clem, this is the Wikipedia Science Conference. Leutha (talk) 18:48, 14 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hey there! The Co-op has been on a hiatus for a bit, but we are planning on opening up shop again soon. When you're able, please read over and respond to this update on our talk page. We have favorable results from our final report regarding the pilot, and we are interested in seeing who is available to mentor when we reopen our space and begin to send out invites again. Thanks, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 23:16, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This message was sent by I JethroBT (talk · contribs) via Mass Message. (Opt-out instructions)

Hi Clem:

It may be worth mentioning that common sundials such as the London one, of which you included an illustration, actually have two styles, one on each edge of the gnomon. One style is used in the forenoon, the other in the afternoon.

DOwenWilliams (talk) 01:11, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have made a slight change to the indicator line giving it two heads. This was a lot more complex than I thought as Inkscape refuses to read the parameter used in the svg to add a curve to a line- even when it was the program that created it!

I haven't changed the text- as I can't think of a change that would be generic enough, if it is more than four words I think it needs to go onto the caption not the diagram. But I remain open to suggestion. Anyone can clone the diagram and add a new text layer if it is really important to them- but they will have to twiddle inkscape.

-- Clem Rutter (talk) 11:43, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've added a couple of sentences to the caption. Another idea might be to write a footnote. (I like footnotes!) DOwenWilliams (talk) 15:17, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited London dial, you added links pointing to the disambiguation pages Thomas Wright and Thomas Heath. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

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Dear sir.

I made some change in this page.

My english is poor. Please have a look to my contribution.Cenec (talk) 07:54, 6 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited London dial, you added links pointing to the disambiguation pages Silverwork and Henry Sutton. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

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The Interior 15:23, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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You may want to comment at meta:Talk:Meetup/Manchester/30#Postponement. Yaris678 (talk) 11:36, 20 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I wrote a blog post and am busy on social media and mailing lists, trying to encourage more people to create or contribute to locality-based lists of public art. Can you help, for your part of the world? Please look out for newbie contributions, assist the editors and tidy up as needed. Please help to publicise this drive, too! Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:14, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the information about the event at Clitheroe Castle Wikipedia:GLAM/Clitheroe Castle Museum. I'll get in touch next week. Jhayward001 (talk) 08:37, 28 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Clem, I reverted back your revert of my clean-up of the Pont du Gard intro, which I did not undertake lightly. The intro sentence as I came upon it was much too cumbersome and overflowing with geographic and linguistic references. Such aspects can be presented later in an article if necessary. Plus, there is no need to link every single geographic name in a sentence or paragraph; at a certain point it becomes a distraction rather than a help. For example, if readers are curious, they need only follow the Gardon link to learn all about the river's name and geography. And I seriously doubt anyone has dubbed this aqueduct the Pont-du-Gard Bridge in an English reference work before now. I think a dispassionate read of both versions will make my observations clear. Eric ^talk 19:13, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Eric: I am glad you have come back to me. My edit was interrupted by a call to dinner and needed refining. I object to the Gard, being referred to as the Gard river, as the European convention is to but the word river first. In this case the river is the Gardon- the word river is not used. The Pont-du-Gard has always been the Pont-du-Gard in English, and never the Pont-du-Gard Bridge or Pont-du-Gard bridge but this is a better wording than saying (Literally:Gard Bridge). If for nothing else that the du in French is a genitive and must be expressed in English as Bridge of Gard or Gard's Bridge.

Can I look at your reversion and make comments:

The Pont du Gard (Gard Bridge) is an ancient Roman aqueduct bridge *1 that crosses the Gardon River in the south of France *2. Located in near *3 the town of Vers-Pont-du-Gard, the bridge is part of the Nîmes aqueduct, a 50 km-long (31 mi) *4 structure built by the Romans *5 to carry water from a spring at Uzès to the Roman colony of Nemausus (Nîmes)[4] *6 Because the terrain between the two points is hilly, the aqueduct – built mostly underground – took a long, winding route that crossed the gorge of the Gardon, requiring the construction of an aqueduct bridge. Built in the first century AD, the Pont du Gard is the highest of all Roman aqueduct bridges and is, with the Aqueduct of Segovia, one of the *7 best preserved. It was added to UNESCO's list of World Heritage Sites in 1985 because of its historical importance.

• 1 aqueduct bridge is not English- as in English aqueduct has two meanings- a water course and a bridge carrying water Agree; the construction caught my eye initially as odd, but I assumed that the writer was working from a precedent I had yet to encounter. I changed it.
• 2 not specific enough I tend towards a brief general geographic reference for an initial sentence.
• 3 in near Typo, fixed.
• 4 mi non standard abbreviation Didn't initially jump out at me as out of line, so I left it. Now changed; see what you think. I don't always think every distance on wp needs a conversion, and I don't like how those conversion templates apparently can't accommodate proper hyphenation when a distance is expressed as an adjective preceding a noun.
• 5 of course the Romans built a Roman aqueduct Yes. Nixed.
• 6 Because the terrain between the two points is hilly, the aqueduct – built mostly underground – took a long, winding route that crossed the gorge of the Gardon, requiring the construction of an aqueduct bridge. - I probably wrote this but it is awful- the terrain is not hilly- it is a deeply incised valley, formed at the time of the Alpine uplift. Is this the Gorge du Gardon [www.gorgesdugardon.fr/index.php/Géologie-et-Paysages?idpage=12&afficheMenuContextuel=true#6] even though Vers Pont du Gard is a commune in the Grande site sydicat- just a question. Again problem with the term aqueduct bridge (its fine in French pont-aqueduct).
• 7 it is the best preserved but probably needs a reference That sentence didn't strike me as terrible. It seems the Gorges du Gardon is a nature preserve: fr:Gorges_du_Gardon. I tweaked that part--see what you think.

Going back to the question of name- the Gard is a department, the Gard is a French translation of the Occitan word Gardon. Gardon is the river. (look at official publications from the department) Yes this lede does need to be changed- I gave it a shaking but freely admit it can be done better. So, over to you.-- Clem Rutter (talk) 00:49, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Clem- I replied to your listed comments in italics above. I agree re the awkwardness of "Gard Bridge"--that struck me at the outset as unnecessary at best. Re the hyphenated "Pont-du-Gard", I've never seen that in English or French. In a brief rummaging through the web, including on fr.wp, I could not find any definitive etymology re Gard/Gardon. Nothing here: fr:Gardon_(rivière) nor on fr:Histoire_du_Gard. Interesting musing here on Etymologie-Occitane.fr Eric ^talk 13:30, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there! Do you know that there will be meetups in Liverpool on the 27th of September and in Manchester on the 25th of October?

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Yaris678 via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 11:51, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

For the training sessions on the 19th September I have produced these two booklets--comments welcome they will probably be around at the litheroe Castle Museum Edit-a-thon on 26th September.

From the feedback the files have been reworked - these are both usable but I will continue fiddling with the fonts. I need to look at the maths section in the intermediate and write the page on writing templates. Here are the drop box links

• https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7828363/Clitheroe%20Beginners%20%28Non-patronising%20edition%29%20.odt
• https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7828363/Clitheroe%20Intermediate.odt

-- Clem Rutter (talk) 10:22, 11 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7828363/British%20Library%20Wildlife%20Sounds%20Intermediate.odt

-- Clem Rutter (talk) 20:11, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the instruction - great fun — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lccrudge (talk • contribs) 11:18, 19 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Clem this is Katharine Lovejoy

Hi Clem Thanks for the morning training. Suzanne

Hi Clem, Thank you for a great course. Here is my user name. Jhayward001 (talk) 11:20, 19 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hello! I'm running a survey to identify the best way to notify Wikimedians about upcoming UK wikimeets (informal, in-person social meetings of Wikimedians), and to see if we can improve UK wikimeets to make them accessible and attractive to more editors and readers. All questions are optional, and it will take about 10 minutes to complete. Please fill it in at:

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/JJMNVVD

Thanks! Mike Peel (talk) 17:05, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Clem, I've been busy tracing the various mills in Clitheroe. A couple of issues remain, one being Claremont Mill, I can find no trace and am thinking that it is confused for Brewery Mill. Also I've removed Greenacre Mill to leave Holmes Mill as I'm fairly sure that they are one and the same. I don't have access to the Ashmore source used in List of mills in Lancashire maybe it sheds more light? --Trappedinburnley (talk) 18:23, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Trappedinburnley: I'll see you on Saturday- but in the meantime we could knock together a List of mills in Clitheroe article on the lines of List of mills in Preston (oops that needs urgently improving!). Ashmore is at the moment in Rochester and I am in Newcastle. I was just browsing through 'Mill Trutex Clitheroe' which is Jubilee Mill, I found a Westmorland Gazette ref: http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/news/10333588.Clitheroe_school_uniform_firm_Trutex_takes_over_Rochdale_company/ . Whether it is Thornber's Mill, Holmes or Greenacre it does seem to be the same. The mills seem to have a Builder Name, A location name or/and Occupants name. I think that Claremont could be an occupant- I'll keep searching. But look at Claremont Ave, and Claremont Drive, 53.865525, -2.384059. Also this Carlton Mill -- Clem Rutter (talk) 19:44, 20 September 2015 (UTC)b[reply]

List of Mills in Clitheroe seems a good idea, we have taken over the project page somewhat. I was thinking Trutex deserved a mention on the Clitheroe article, but I had no idea it is so old. They started building Claremont Ave after WWII. MARIO has aerial imagery from that period, nothing much there except Goosebutts Farm. However Claremont House survives, on Pendle Rd at the junction with Goosebutts Ln. In 1890 it was separated from Brewery Mill by a pond, now filled-in under Highmoor Park (road). From the view of the Castle, Carlton Mill seems to have been Victoria Mill, which I had missed.--Trappedinburnley (talk) 11:22, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Interior via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:29, 1 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited List of mills in Clitheroe, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Calico. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

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I have been asked to advise on this- can I open this invitation. I have never encountered this procedure before- the subject seems notable ( Obits- in 3 newspapers +Radio 4)- a well referenced article being criticised for being too chummy. A bio about a notable women? What am I missing? -- Clem Rutter (talk) 08:40, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Hello, I'm BracketBot. I have automatically detected that your edit to Clog may have broken the syntax by modifying 1 "()"s. If you have, don't worry: just edit the page again to fix it. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave a message on my operator's talk page.

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• a welt, adecorative strip of soft leathe,r would be nailed over to conceal the joint. Fasteners (clasps, eyes or buttons would go on and finally a protective toe-tin.<ref> Interpretive leaflet

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Hello ClemRutter,

Thank you for adding an extensive section Manufacturing English Clogs at the page clog. However, I removed it. This because there exist a page for English Clogs, which you can find here: Clog (British). The page Clog is an introduction page for clogs worldwide. The gallery with pictures gives links to national clogs. So also to English clog. Thanks again for your interest. Kind regards, Berkh (talk) 05:44, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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— Whatamidoing (WMF) 04:16, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for knocking the citations on the clogs page into shape. I see you had fun with the Owen references. The normal way of doing it is documented at Template:Sfn#More than one work in a year and simply consists of adding a lowercase letter to the year. However, your use of {{SfnRef}} is fine as an alternative. Thanks once again, Martin of Sheffield (talk) 09:43, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Its quite quick if you take the copy to a texteditor (pluma, gedit) and do global replace. I am not up to speed with citation- mainly using the cite templates- 2012a has a few limitation when dealing with older newbies- but do change it if you wish. Are you going to have a go at Clog dance this weekend. In my idle hours I am looking for a reference to support User:Berkh assertion on Clog that will take some lateral thinking. -- Clem Rutter (talk) 10:15, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your help and work on the Clog (British) page, sir. Berkh (talk) 10:55, 31 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited Stockport Central Library, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Turnpike. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

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Hello. Why did you remove the picture from the article? You said that the picture adds nothing to the article, even though it is a picture of a sundial, if nothing it helps illustrate the article better. VS6507 (talk) 09:26, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for showing an interest- In the Commons:Vertical sundials there are 1,243 images, and further sub- categories. Your dial is a simple modern dial, of a south west vertical declining (afternoon dial) The dial vertical points to 12.45- that is an offset of 45mins time- or about 12 degrees east. The web site locates the centre at 44° 14’ 50’’ N & 19° 55’ 50’’ E which is an offset of 20 degrees- or 80mins. This is a little puzzling. This dial appears to have a sub-style of zero- so as SD= arctan (sin d/tam φ) this seems to be a co-incidence. Neither this image or the article Petnica Science Center is geotagged.

Looking at the image, the motto is fuzzy and to the right there is wasted space. The image needs to be cropped.

As the motto says Sumnjaj da bi razumeo- and this has led to a useful discussion. -- Clem Rutter (talk) 12:28, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the useful comments. The image is not the best quality one; I might take a better shot in the future.

According to Google, Petnica Center is probably located at 44.246540=44° 14' 48'' N, 19.930834=19° 55' 51'' E [3], so that's quite similar to your coordinates. I think we can use this for geotagging. This dial's vertical is pointed to 1, and Aldeburgh is close to 1st meridian east, but this doesn't seem to be the case with the sundial in Petnica. Frankly, I don't know much about trigonometry or math for that matter, I'd need more studying in that field... I've contacted the Center, though, asking them if they can tell me more about this type of dial. I'll let you know if they reply.

As for cropping, I could do that tomorrow. Regards, Alex (talk) 19:57, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

So, can you tell me what else is needed to include this pic in the page? Alex (talk) 22:39, 7 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

For the training sessions I have produced these three booklets--comments welcome- They were used at the

• Clitheroe Castle Museum Edit-a-thon on 26th September.
• Wikipedia:British wildlife edit-a-thon 2015 on 7th November

From the feedback the files have been reworked - I will continue fiddling with them. I need to look at the maths section in the intermediate and write the page on writing templates. Here are the drop box links

• https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7828363/Clitheroe%20Beginners%20%28Non-patronising%20edition%29%20.odt
• https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7828363/Clitheroe%20Intermediate.odt
• https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7828363/British%20Library%20Wildlife%20Sounds%20Intermediate.odt

-- Clem Rutter (talk) 21:48, 7 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Clem. Is there a reason for adding Atkinson and Cahill to external links? Both pages are given in the references section above. I'd revert, but someone of your standing probably does have a good reason. Regards, Martin of Sheffield (talk) 11:53, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Cahill for balance (weak)but Atkinson- it is his five videos this Rough cutting this Hollowing this Uppers this Clasps Clog and Pattern) I am after. He has done them using Vimeo, and I can't find a clear CC-BY-SA statement- which possibly was an oversight- he comments a lot on Clogging videos for instance NWFilm archive ([https://vimeo.com/album/3066221/video/107803204 this). All those videos I would like to see on commons--but before that I think we need to have them clearly placed- then someone can phone and ask him whether he is willing to put a CC-BY-SA tag on them so we can go the copy them over. Walkley's are not using traditional techniques but use machines- not the wood or the technique described.

I am searching for illustrations of Blockers, Hollowers etc- Cahill has one, Chris Brady this but copyright unclear.And Now, Stock knife has an illustration- but it is not of a blocker-goodness knows what it is. So that is the evil plan.

Think is a about time to do the Clog dancing split. More later this week. -- Clem Rutter (talk) 12:58, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not querying the usefulness of Atkison & Cahill, just whether the same page needs to be referenced in two succeeding sections? I've been a bit busy recently so I haven't taken up your earlier challenge. If you want to run with it, good luck! Martin of Sheffield (talk) 13:27, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've just seen the extra Atkinson videos, so fair enough, comment withdrawn. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 13:52, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I rely on you- to challenge my mistakes. Just too bad that you don't do the London meet-up or I can buy you a pint. -- Clem Rutter (talk) 14:21, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Martin of Sheffield: This is the state of Clog dancing draft It is still littered with copyvios which I am slowly culling but I think the structure is right. I am minded to redirect Clog-dancing to a new page Clog dancing as I can't see the logic of the dash. Any thoughts? -- Clem Rutter (talk) 22:05, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Clem. I've had a look at the draft and it seems fine. Possibly the lead is a bit long and repeats too much detail from the history section, but that can be better précised once the body has been knocked into shape. Keep up the good work! I might try to get to a London meetup, but at the moment family life is a bit hectic (2 teenage sons) and London is a pain to get to these days! Martin of Sheffield (talk) 09:35, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hello ClemRutter, The videos are very interesting. I further searched a bit on Clitheroe Castle Museum and found out there is an exposition of the work of a local retired traditional clog maker. I was wondering if there is also a permanent collection of (international) clogs? Kind regards, Berkh (talk) 19:31, 12 November 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Sadly, not yet- the aim of the museum was to represent aspects of local life- (auf Deutsch- Es is heute nur ein Heimats museum.) Send me an email and we can talk more freely. Clem.-- Clem Rutter (talk) 19:55, 12 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hello ClemRutter, I am searching for the email option, but I can not find it. Kind regards, Berkh (talk) 09:48, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

User page- Tools - 5th option down or here ( I am off out with my granddaughter now- till this evening) -- Clem Rutter (talk) 10:15, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A note: Dutch clog dancing, or klompendansen is hardly existing. If it really existed (organised) at all. I seems more something that in the past happened spontaneous. I can't remember I have seen it for real. Klompendansen as an expression is on the other hand well known. Putting on klompen and a traditional dress is more something for Dutch emigrants in Holland, Michigan, USA. Pictures of it there seem to me a hodgepodge of traditional clothing from the West of the Netherlands. The clothing you only see in Volendam and Alkmaar. What tourists see and associate with Holland. Clothing in the North, East and South is different. Kind regards, Berkh (talk) 19:54, 12 November 2015 (UTC).[reply]

I take that on board-- Clem Rutter (talk) 20:09, 12 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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FYI. Cheers, Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:53, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I'd been thinking of doing a content fork of Terraced house for some time, after I explained to my (American) partner what a typical 3-up 2-down terraced house was like. I started Draft:Terraced houses in the United Kingdom, thinking there were no other comparable articles, then came across Byelaw terraced house which you also started recently. We probably need to merge the two articles together, as the one I started is wider in scope and covers all terraces, rather than just the stereotypical Victorian ones. How do you think we should proceed? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:44, 20 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi - great to hear from you. Two months ago I would have agreed- I wrote the Byelaw terraced house article in frustration at finding a term I hadn't heard before which didn't have a WP article. I also saw a problem with Council house- but a with little brute force, I forked it into Council House and Public housing in the United Kingdom. The source material is incredible rich and my thoughts are changing on a daily basis. And there is great cross over.

So with my hidden agenda of total world domination before Xmas- I think we should focus Draft:Terraced houses in the United Kingdom as the overview article with Byelaw terraced housing as a more specific child article, along with ones on Georgian terraces, London terraces with mews, Packed earth floor back-to-backs Tenements.

• "The History of Council Housing". The History of Council Housing. University of the West of England. Retrieved 19 November 2015. is a great source

RW Brunskill, has written many articles on pre- 1900 vernacular building types- I have several; but haven 't drilled down to find much on council housing or privately built terraces. Time factor.

My thoughts were that council house, should be mainly about the bricks and mortar- ground plans elevations etc. The designed changed radically from 1910 to 1960, when we had the tower block interlude. Public housing in the United Kingdom should take the housing unit as a commodity and explain the philosophy, sociology and politics of publically provided units- I haven't started to shape that yet- the different sections between the two articles will link like the rungs of a ladder. My interest started from the physical bricks and mortar but there are so many spin offs.

Back to the humble terrace- you can date a Byelaw house by its feature- for instance the lintels over the windows- starting with the brick lintels that key into the one brick solid walls at 70 degree angle- the cast stone replacements that key in at 70, the cast stone flat lintels that rest on 9" footings and disperse the force vertically. Concrete with stone facings- steel with stone or brick facings. etc This needs expanding. Plumbing evolution, the acceptance of water closet within the house (so unhygenic- it will never catch on), the change from scullery to kitchen... so the byelaw article is resting until I have time to reference and add these details. It has the potential to become massive. This was a period when planning and building control were becoming established- many of these houses were not designed by an architect, but bought from a pattern book that the builder maintained. (still haven't found one) Architectural practices were involved in estate layout (I think)

Parkinson-Bailey Parkinson-Bailey, John J. (2000). Manchester: an Architectural History. Manchester: Manchester University Press. ISBN 0-7190-5606-3. has a great chapter on Housing in the Nineteenth Century which has two good quotes about the working classes: ..there is no great hardship for people of this class to share a scullery with another family; they have for the most part been doing this most of their lives... This and UWE are good sources for an article on Pre 1875 urban terraced houses. I am now looking for material for Interwar terraced houses. It seems to be out there just uncategorised.

More later- I have been interrupted again. -- Clem Rutter (talk) 18:32, 20 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've moved the draft article to mainspace, so it's now at Terraced houses in the United Kingdom, and added some more information from that UWE source. I had a look at some of the other articles on that website as well. The article is now about 1350 words, which is a reasonable introduction to a topic and a suitable spin-off from the main Terraced house article, so I think we should be able to accommodate this topic fairly well. I think the next thing to look at is the various types of estates that spring up in the 19th century, and why - I know all about the terraces in South Wales because my grandparents lived there and it's one of the best surviving examples of basic terraced housing in the entire country, but I'd like to know more about why there are large amounts of uninhabited terraces in Liverpool and Greater Manchester and what exactly caused it to happen. There was that episode of DIY SOS recently where a team of people banded together to completely restore a street.

Part of the motivation to write about this topic is trying to find out more about various memories I have, such as wondering why the house I used to live in, a 1900s terrace, looked identical to all the others in the street, except for the downstairs bathrooms, which had all been retro-fitted individually in completely different styles depending on who did it. Why are typical Victorian or Edwardian terrace houses basically all the same design with variations? And why are pairs of terraces that still have the original finish on them named "<name> villas"? (random example found on StreetView) And how and when did electricity, running water and (ultimately) central heating get retrofitted into all of them? Questions, questions. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:35, 20 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

With gross unreferenced generalisations-- Jobs moved to the towns- Manchester, Leeds, South East London, round the mills, foundries and shipyards and factories. Economic growth was constrained by the number of labourers you could get. Children from the workhouses were cheap but even then you had to house them within walking distance of the factory gate. You needed tenements or houses. Maximum density was achieved in back-t--backs or round courtyards- the earthcloset of privies were at the end of the street, disease and pollution killed of the labourers faster than you could replace them.

Suggestion Hi Clem Thanks for your message to-day. I agree with you. It would be very nice to have an infobox containing the relevant facts on the artist and an image that encapsulates the artists style of painting.(snowpatrol 20:18, 21 November 2015 (UTC)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seascaper (talk • contribs)

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===Patrick Hennessy(painter)

To clear up the confusion regarding the Irish Census.John Hennessy(Patricks father)being in the army was stationed at Athlone(Westmeath)in 1911 along with his wife Bridget,son Dennis and daughter Bridget.To verify the entry further please see Dundee Courier 1/5/37.Marriage entry:Miss Brida Hennessy-eldest daughter of the late sergeant major J.Hennessy-Leinster Regiment and of Mrs Duncan,9 bridge Streetsnowpatrol 15:04, 24 November 2015 (UTC). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seascaper (talk • contribs)

Hi Clem, how's it going? Thanks for posting this, I was aware that funding cuts where likely, but this is a shock. I'm particularly worried about QSM, as it seems so much would have to be done so quickly to save it. I believe there is an Christmas event at Helmshore on Saturday. Not my usual scene but I think I'm going to pop down and see what people are thinking about the future.

You may have noticed that I've not been around for a while, but I have continued with Clitheroe Castle offline, time permitting, and merged it back in the other day. It has been hard work, as it turns out that just about everything about its history is disputed, especially its origin. I've sill got a few bits to tidy-up, one being the referencing on your geology section. Where you aware that you haven't actually ref'd the Kabrna book that you added to the Bibliography? I'm currently in two minds whether to put it through the GA process in the future. Trappedinburnley (talk) 20:04, 26 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've been distracted. Without going into the gory details, its been dicky birds at the British Library, and a daughter moving house to Nottingham. So, I have looked at Kabrna again and realised why I put him down.

As I understand it- the baserock of 838 m of Chatburn limestone was deposited in flat shallow (75-100m) warm falling seas seas about 360 MA (milions of years)^[1] . About 351MA it tilted and the sea level increased and this marked the start of the Clitheroe limestones (both in the Bowland High group- of the western european Tornnaisian stage of Carboniferous ^[2] )

The mud mounds were thought by Tiddeman (1889) & Parkinson to be mound like accumulations of biogenic material^[3] Vaughan (1916) recognised the fossil content was the same as in the Waulsortian limestones/mudstones in Belgian, in the 50s it was found that the mounds did not have the skeletal frameworks created by living organisms- so it was not a reef. They were created by lime mud, flowing in from elsewhere Lees(2006) ^[4]. The clue was looking at the Crinoids.

In 1972 Miller and Grayson described the mudmound having a core or bank bed. This developed in a low energy system and could be a stack of mounds. They are surrounded by thick bedded looser flank beds deposited in more turbulent waters--these merge into flat deposited inter-bank beds which can also occur in non Waulsortian conditions. ^[5]

Wallsortian mudmounds occur in two layers in the Clitheroe Limestone, the Coplow Limestone Member, and again in the Bellman Limestone Member which is upto 800m deep. Clitheroe castle is a Bellman member Wallsortian mudmound ^[6] This is around 346.3 MA. The sea-level was falling leaving an unconformity, and the base platform was fracturing. We ane entering the Viséan (Craven Group). These formation would be further fractured by the varican orogeny ^[7]

There are also a couple references on ^[8]

References

Clitheroe Castle looks very good-

And to QSM and Helmshore- my thoughts are secure the mill by forming a single issue trust, buying it for a pound, and get Museum of Science and Industry to 'adopt it' and pay to run it , using European money to establish a world heritage site- or partner with Tuchfabrik Müller to form a European ring of Textile History. To save them coffee mornings wont be enough. LCC Museums officers probably have several viable ideas but need to gauge the professional support they can get locally- so lobby to establish management committee so organisations have someone to talk to. I know it sounds impossible- PS Medway Queen is still progressing- they has a lot of support from the Boilermakers Union. I am an email away -if I can be of any use. Clem Rutter (talk) 23:24, 26 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 22:13, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The answer is that anything can happen if we want it to happen badly enough. This is our chance to steer the ship. I have simply made a proposal. That starts discussion. Where that leads I have no idea. Fiddle Faddle 12:14, 5 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi - I can't help noticing you are having a bit of bother with an editor on the Naturist page - I believe you might be interested in this sockpuppet investigation, as I think Queenmiss/Victoriaa11 is very probably the same person as Utbindas/Shreyoshidasgupta - and the recent editing patterns are really supporting this. I can't help wondering if this is an editor who's been blocked/suspended before, given how au fait they appear to be with the Wikipedia system. Anyway, just a heads-up that there's something strange going on here. I'm mostly leaving them to their antics for the time being, pending the outcome of the investigation, but couldn't help noticing odd patterns/similarities, and I think the more editors that are aware to keep an eye on things, the better. Mabalu (talk) 12:07, 10 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Dear ClemRutter, I must confess that many of the duplicated internal links in the Roy Hart article were mine. And I wanted to thank you for pointing out my misunderstanding of linking policy. I am learning as I go, and suffer sometimes from punctilliousness in the wrong places. When I have finsihed working on the next articles I am currently researching, I will go back through those to which I have made a major contribution and rectify the same issue. And in future I will just link to the fist mention, in accordance with your note. Many thanks, and apologies for my misunderstanding. Prolumbo (talk) 11:11, 28 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Per discussion at Village Pump technical: WP:Flow is the WMF's explanation/documentation/sales-pitch for Flow. But more usefully you can give it a try. You can freely make test posts at mw:Talk:Sandbox. I would have linked you to the local EnWiki Flow testing page, but it died when an admin tried testing admin tools on it. Alsee (talk) 00:51, 1 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I am on your course.--AvianLee (talk) 18:55, 7 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Hi ClemRutter, Never thought I'd say this but thanks for reverting!, For some reason the images looked like they were taken at different locations (I don't think the captions helped!) which is actually why I removed them, Had I realized they were actually taken at Ebbsfleet I wouldn't of removed them so thanks again for reverting :), Thanks, –Davey2010^Talk 22:31, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If the weather were better I may do some more. I am now trying to put together a few neutral paragraphs on the Ebbsfleet Valley housing fiasco. There is a lot of background work, ABC city was being quoted but that was a redlink-- I have multiple spreadsheets open as HMRC is knocking at my door too. Keep up the conversation.-- Clem Rutter (talk) 14:13, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Clem, was good to see you today. If you get the chance (and the weather!) for an excursion, there are three war memorials I need photos of in Kent. They're in Maidstone (which is nice and easy for you!), Rolvenden, and Sandhurst (no, not that Sandhurst!). We do have some photos of them all on Commons (c:Category:Maidstone Cenotaph‎, c:Category:Rolvenden war memorial‎, and c:Category:Sandhurst war memorial, Kent), so it's not urgent—I'll have illustrations for when I do finally get round to writing the articles—but they're not great quality and they're low resolution. We do have a nice sharp photo of Rolvenden's, but it's side-on! Anything you can do would be great but a comprehensive survey with photos from all angles would be absolutely fantastic. In return, I promise I'll use some of them in articles! Thanks, HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 02:06, 11 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Hi Clem. Can you help me out? I am not by any means averse to criticism, and have worked hard since joining to address all issues raised on any article I have written. I have just finished a very long process of authoring Autonomous sensory meridian response. I got way to involved probably. But I really felt it was my best article so far. A user has placed templates saying it lacks structure and flow, and may need re-writing entirely to meet quality standards. If this is true, then really, there is little point me continuing, because it is the best I can do. Does it really need rewriting? Does it really lack structure and flow? It is not that I am claiming it is faultless by any means. But the specific faults pointed out seem to me way off. Tell me straight. Many many thanks! Prolumbo (talk) 07:37, 3 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Its all there, but if you are an A level student- its a bit difficult to navigate. Give me fifteen minutes and I add a bit of hierarchy to the sub-headings and we well see how it reads. Then I will compare it with an article on a similar subject and jiggle the sections around. Back soon. -- Clem Rutter (talk) 10:21, 3 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Prolumbo: I have made a few changes- I think now, you clean up any errors I have made and wait for a respond. Then take it from there. Hope that helps. Clem Rutter (talk) 10:25, 3 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Clem, I hope this works!--Eburdett (talk) 11:58, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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I was sorry to hear the news about the planned closure of museums in Lancashire. If you, Andy or others make plans to take action while they are still open, please let me know. Andrew D. (talk) 20:24, 14 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Three years ago ...

cotton mills
... you were recipient no. 399 of Precious, a prize of QAI!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:59, 17 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Four years now! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:19, 17 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Clem, I have just started the Resource-based learning article, which i thought might be of interest to you. Leutha (talk) 23:23, 21 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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The single edit tab project will combine the "Edit" and "Edit source" tabs into a single "Edit" tab. This is similar to the system already used on the mobile website. (T102398) Initially, the "Edit" tab will open whichever editing environment you used last time. Your last editing choice will be stored as an account preference for logged-in editors, and as a cookie for logged-out users. Logged-in editors will have these options in the Editing tab of Special:Preferences:

• Remember my last editor,
• Always give me the visual editor if possible,
• Always give me the source editor, and
• Show me both editor tabs. (This is the state for people using the visual editor now.)

The visual editor uses the same search engine as Special:Search to find links and files. This search will get better at detecting typos and spelling mistakes soon. These improvements to search will appear in the visual editor as well.

The visual editor will be offered to all editors at most "Phase 6" Wikipedias during the next few months. The developers would like to know how well the visual editor works in your language. They particularly want to know whether typing in your language feels natural in the visual editor. Please post your comments and the language(s) that you tested at the feedback thread on mediawiki.org. This will affect the following languages: Japanese, Korean, Urdu, Persian, Arabic, Tamil, Marathi, Malayalam, Hindi, Bengali, Assamese, Thai, Aramaic and others.

Let's work together

• Please try out the newest version of the single edit tab on test2.wikipedia.org. You may need to restore the default preferences (at the bottom of test2wiki:Special:Preferences) to see the initial prompt for options. Were you able to find a preference setting that will work for your own editing? Did you see the large preferences dialog box when you started editing an article there?
• Can you read and type in Korean, Arabic, Japanese, Indic, or Han scripts? Language engineer David Chan needs help from people who often type in these languages. Please see the instructions at mw:VisualEditor/IME Testing#What to test if you can help. Report your results on wiki (Korean – Japanese – all languages).
• Learn how to improve the "automagical" citoid referencing system in the visual editor, by creating Zotero translators for popular sources in your language! Join the Tech Talk about "Automated citations in Wikipedia: Citoid and the technology behind it" with Sebastian Karcher on 29 February 2016.

If you aren't reading this in your favorite language, then please help us with translations! Subscribe to the Translators mailing list or contact us directly, so that we can notify you when the next issue is ready. Thanks!

– Whatamidoing (WMF) 17:46, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Semi-detached

added links pointing to John Nash, Scullery, Privy and Halifax

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Upload link Test the link. -- Clem Rutter (talk) 21:21, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

One of the editors attending your edit-a-thon, Tamasine22 is engaging in some editing practices at Extant Theatre Company that I wouldn't really expect from one learning from an expert such as yourself. Would you mind taking a look? Thanks. R. A. Simmons ^Talk 15:58, 3 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. We are watching them all- they have enthusiasm but there is a long way to go still. We are encouraging them now to edit each others articles- so we will see how that goes. Please do keep a watchful eye too and pass any further advice to them on their talk pages. -- Clem Rutter (talk) 16:23, 3 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Will do, thanks. R. A. Simmons ^Talk 17:47, 3 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. This is a quick note to let you know that the results of the UK wikimeet survey have now been posted on Meta at m:UK Wikimeet survey 2015. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 21:01, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Mike Peel: @Leutha: I have left comments on the related talk page m:Talk:UK Wikimeet survey 2015.--ClemRutter (talk) 15:24, 12 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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If you have not seen the announcement: ----https----://www.change.org/p/councillor-jennifer-mein-save-lancashire-s-mill-museums/u/15881342?tk=zsPP_0EKngotzxzN95lLiRI2vdpAu2Rgi8n87Y6R02I ------ ClemRutter (talk) 10:17, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Clem. As you have commented on the article previously, what say you about a youngster taking out a literary reference to 1066 and All That from one of the headers? I have explained it to him but he has nevertheless taken it down again. Is it that school articles bring out the persistent pupil in some wikipedians? Best wishes, --Po Kadzieli (talk) 16:50, 25 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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• is the demolition of all the buildings in the area.” <ref> Sheffield Archives: CA-MIN/74,p. 221)</ref>

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You can choose one or two edit tabs. If you chose one edit tab, then you can switch between the two editing environments by clicking the buttons in the toolbar (shown in the screenshots). See Help:VisualEditor/User guide#Switching between the visual and wikitext editors for more information and screenshots.

There is more information about this interface change at mw:VisualEditor/Single edit tab. If you have questions, suggestions, or problems to report, then please leave a note at Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Feedback.

Whatamidoing (WMF) 19:22, 11 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi,

I wonder if there is somewhere a blog post or some other kind of summary about the edit-a-thon on the UK EU referendum. How was it? What are the outcomes?

Have a nice day, – T.seppelt (talk) 06:42, 17 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@T.seppelt: The main page was Wikipedia:Meetup/UK EU edit-a-thon and this is being used by about a third of the editors for feed back. Full fact have a link to a third party page on that site. There were two talks- one by Andrew Gray- short, and professionally done, on what is wikipedia and then one by Joe ?????. /how-to-make-bad-charts-7-simple-rules. I had prepared the booklet Newspeak House- Strengthening an article which most people ignore until they needed to mod a graph. or table and then it was 'Clem- could you just help out over here' so I spent most of the day life a demented butterfly. All the users were very focussed. Graphs were mainly of interest to Joe... there maybe more but I suggest Wikipedia talk:Meetup/UK EU edit-a-thon. ClemRutter (talk) 07:59, 17 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Wikimedia UK Education 2016 Leutha (talk) 18:17, 17 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Good to meet again at the London Meetup. Here's one of the pictures you wanted -- the World Naked Bike Ride in Holborn yesterday. I have a bunch more but they are all much the same. Andrew D. (talk) 21:39, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks- It has now gone live. --ClemRutter (talk) 22:57, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Lovely to meet you yesterday at the London meetup - thanks for such a warm welcome! Zeromonk (talk) 08:20, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Editing News #2—2016 Read this in another language • Subscription list for this multilingual newsletter

Did you know?

It's quick and easy to insert a references list.

Place the cursor where you want to display the references list (usually at the bottom of the page). Open the "Insert" menu and click the "References list" icon (three books).

If you are using several groups of references, which is relatively rare, you will have the opportunity to specify the group. If you do that, then only the references that belong to the specified group will be displayed in this list of references.

Finally, click "Insert" in the dialog to insert the References list. This list will change as you add more footnotes to the page.

You can read and help translate the user guide, which has more information about how to use the visual editor.

Since the last newsletter, the VisualEditor team has fixed many bugs. Their workboard is available in Phabricator. Their current priorities are improving support for Arabic and Indic scripts, and adapting the visual editor to the needs of the Wikivoyages and Wikisources.

Recent changes

The visual editor is now available to all users at most Wikivoyages. It was also enabled for all contributors at the French Wikinews.

The single edit tab feature combines the "Edit" and "Edit source" tabs into a single "Edit" tab. It has been deployed to several Wikipedias, including Hungarian, Polish, English and Japanese Wikipedias, as well as to all Wikivoyages. At these wikis, you can change your settings for this feature in the "Editing" tab of Special:Preferences. The team is now reviewing the feedback and considering ways to improve the design before rolling it out to more people.

Future changes

The "Save page" button will say "Publish page". This will affect both the visual and wikitext editing systems. More information is available on Meta.

The visual editor will be offered to all editors at the remaining "Phase 6" Wikipedias during the next few months. The developers want to know whether typing in your language feels natural in the visual editor. Please post your comments and the language(s) that you tested at the feedback thread on mediawiki.org. This will affect several languages, including: Arabic, Hindi, Thai, Tamil, Marathi, Malayalam, Urdu, Persian, Bengali, Assamese, Aramaic and others.

The team is working with the volunteer developers who power Wikisource to provide the visual editor there, for opt-in testing right now and eventually for all users. (T138966)

The team is working on a modern wikitext editor. It will look like the visual editor, and be able to use the citoid service and other modern tools. This new editing system may become available as a Beta Feature on desktop devices around September 2016. You can read about this project in a general status update on the Wikimedia mailing list.

Let's work together

• Do you teach new editors how to use the visual editor? Did you help set up the Citoid automatic reference feature for your wiki? Have you written or imported TemplateData for your most important citation templates? Would you be willing to help new editors and small communities with the visual editor? Please sign up for the new VisualEditor Community Taskforce.
• Learn how to improve the "automagical" citoid referencing system in the visual editor, by creating Zotero translators for popular sources in your language! Watch the Tech Talk by Sebastian Karcher for more information.

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Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk), 21:09, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Clem, just wanted to say thanks again for those photos. I've just written the article and used one of them! I owe you a pint! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:32, 6 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hello ClemRutter - I see you reverted the edit I made in the article Cuxton. Please realize that Kentish is an ambiguous word, and it appears to me that none of the alternative articles listed there are helpful to people reading "Tudor Kentish Yeoman's house." Your explanation is that Kentish in this context is an architectural term - I checked Glossary of architecture and it's not listed there, so that doesn't help. I would recommend that Kentish is a better link to use - it's redlink, but it's better than the current status. PKT(alk) 11:26, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we haven't written the article! I am about 1500 km away from my books particularly my Brunskill--isbn:9780575071223-- and yesterday the O2 connection was slow. The one I want is about vernacular timbered buildings. The form is of two wings with a sprung floor between. Wealden hall house may help though was a little large. --ClemRutter (talk) 22:45, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The article Dialling (telephony) has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Unsourced dictionary definition.

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 04:48, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Cévennes

added links pointing to Discontinuity and Watershed

Dialling (telephony)

added a link pointing to Albion, New York

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@Sfan00 IMG:. I have watched some of the debate- the file was left on en: as I couldn't show full PD for the constituent image of the demolished mill. If there remain problems I could SVG and GIMP up an alternative CC-O mill- but if that is unneeded then I will let the status quo stand. --ClemRutter (talk) 09:20, 17 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi ClemRutter. May the user template in Special:WhatLinksHere/User:ClemRutter/scratchpad get replaced by a real template? --Leyo 22:05, 16 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Leyo: Yes- how about Template:Infobox Housing project. It fell off my radar- I had got it so far, as a proof of concept, and was looking for some support, before I researched whether I was about to break anything. Have you any suggestions for improvements. --ClemRutter (talk) 09:13, 17 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I do not really have any suggestions. I was just wondering that a user template is used in several articles. IMO this is bad practice, e.g. as a potential target of vandalism (more difficult to spot). --Leyo 12:10, 17 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It might be best to be bold and perform the move. --Leyo 07:47, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited Camisard, you added links pointing to the disambiguation pages Saint-Hippolyte, Saumane and Mialet. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

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This edit [4]. Completely original research, speculation ("This lane was lined, either side, with horse-chestnut trees and was known to all local children as "Conker Alley""; "it looks like"; "the ford would be"; "Back in the early 1950's".) this is unreferenced (and trivial to boot) speculation based on one editor's interpretation of a map/personal memories. The previous - referenced - version was better. Keri (talk) 14:23, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Keri: I have re-written this for you. A quick google found the Radio Oxford article, and there was a ISBN already in the text. I rescued it as the conker quote was too well written to be vandalism, but the referencing was not the way we do it. It was clear on Open Street map that this had nothing to do with Sandford.

I put the trivia into an extended footnote so the information was not lost but it was away from the main text- it does less harm there. Then reading and re-reading the Radio Oxford piece found the chestnut reference- so all that it needs is a source to the childhood memory. We can afford to let that pass.

I do hope you can expand the article as there is a lot more in the Radio Oxford piece. --ClemRutter (talk) 16:42, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Did you know?

Did you know that you can easily re-arrange columns and rows in the visual editor?

Select a cell in the column or row that you want to move. Click the arrow at the start of that row or column to open the dropdown menu (shown). Choose either "Move before" or "Move after" to move the column, or "Move above" or "Move below" to move the row.

You can read and help translate the user guide, which has more information about how to use the visual editor.

Since the last newsletter, the VisualEditor Team has mainly worked on a new wikitext editor. They have also released some small features and the new map editing tool. Their workboard is available in Phabricator. You can find links to the list of work finished each week at mw:VisualEditor/Weekly triage meetings. Their current priorities are fixing bugs, releasing the 2017 wikitext editor as a beta feature, and improving language support.

Recent changes

• You can now set text as small or big.[5]
• Invisible templates have been shown as a puzzle icon. Now, the name of the invisible template is displayed next to the puzzle icon.[6] A similar feature will display the first part of hidden HTML comments.[7]
• Categories are displayed at the bottom of each page. If you click on the categories, the dialog for editing categories will open.[8]
• At many wikis, you can now add maps to pages. Go to the Insert menu and choose the "Maps" item. The Discovery department are adding more features to this area, like geoshapes. You can read more on MediaWiki.org.[9]
• The "Save" button now says "Save page" when you create a page, and "Save changes" when you change an existing page.[10] In the future, the "Save page" button will say "Publish page". This will affect both the visual and wikitext editing systems. More information is available on Meta.
• Image galleries now use a visual mode for editing. You can see thumbnails of the images, add new files, remove unwanted images, rearrange the images by dragging and dropping, and add captions for each image. Use the "Options" tab to set the gallery's display mode, image sizes, and add a title for the gallery.[11]

Future changes

The visual editor will be offered to all editors at the remaining 10 "Phase 6" Wikipedias during the next month. The developers want to know whether typing in your language feels natural in the visual editor. Please post your comments and the language(s) that you tested at the feedback thread on mediawiki.org. This will affect several languages, including Thai, Burmese and Aramaic.

The team is working on a modern wikitext editor. The 2017 wikitext editor will look like the visual editor and be able to use the citoid service and other modern tools. This new editing system may become available as a Beta Feature on desktop devices in October 2016. You can read about this project in a general status update on the Wikimedia mailing list.

Let's work together

Do you teach new editors how to use the visual editor? Did you help set up the Citoid automatic reference feature for your wiki? Have you written or imported TemplateData for your most important citation templates? Would you be willing to help new editors and small communities with the visual editor? Please sign up for the new VisualEditor Community Taskforce.

If you aren't reading this in your preferred language, then please help us with translations! Subscribe to the Translators mailing list or contact us directly, so that we can notify you when the next issue is ready. Thank you! Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:18, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

19:07, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Hi Clem

Good to meet you at the DAO editathon on Monday.

I'm now working my way through your 'Writing Your First Article' booklet, like a good student.

My article on Tony Heaton is progressing well.

Allan Sutherland

--Allan Sutherland (talk) 13:05, 9 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi ClemRutter, When you moved the Fastrack article instead of it being "Fastrack (fashion accessories)" you had moved it to "Fastrack ( fashion accessories)" which is obviously incorrect - The article still exists I've just removed the extra space :), Thanks, –Davey2010^Talk 18:10, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

:-) ClemRutter (talk) 18:17, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Draft:Tony Heaton is being worked on by User:Allan Sutherland (talk).

Hi Clem - so sorry I didn't make it to the meetup yesterday to see you - I had a bit of a gardening-related injury! If you can still come along tomorrow I'd be very grateful to have you there to help out. The editing part of the day will begin at about 2.30pm, so if you'd prefer to skip the talks and just come to that you could do, though you're very welcome to come for the whole day - whatever is best for you. Let me know if you can make it (and if you have any dietary requirements for lunch!). Zeromonk (talk) 09:56, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Clem - Thank you for the information. You may see us there tomorrow. Sent Zeromonk an email back today. Thisandthem (talk) 14:51, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again for coming along today - it was brilliant having you here to get involved and help out! Zeromonk (talk) 17:18, 15 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Clem. --Russtmoul87 (talk) 14:59, 15 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about this - I was absolutely sure it was in article space when I edited it. Clearly I'm confused - I'd not usually edit something like that in userspace. Apologies and best wishes DBaK (talk) 07:37, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Confused- welcome to my world. --ClemRutter (talk) 09:25, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There's a lot of it about!! :) Thanks for the nice reply. DBaK (talk) 12:34, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, ClemRutter. Voting in the 2016 Arbitration Committee elections is open from Monday, 00:00, 21 November through Sunday, 23:59, 4 December to all unblocked users who have registered an account before Wednesday, 00:00, 28 October 2016 and have made at least 150 mainspace edits before Sunday, 00:00, 1 November 2016.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

If you wish to participate in the 2016 election, please review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. Mdann52 (talk) 22:08, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, ClemRutter. Voting in the 2016 Arbitration Committee elections is open from Monday, 00:00, 21 November through Sunday, 23:59, 4 December to all unblocked users who have registered an account before Wednesday, 00:00, 28 October 2016 and have made at least 150 mainspace edits before Sunday, 00:00, 1 November 2016.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

If you wish to participate in the 2016 election, please review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 22:08, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@ ClemRutter, Hello!

Thank you for Hand holding. Errors aplenty in my edits, I acknowledge.
I am intrigued and fascinated with the World on this side of wiki. My respects continue to grow each day for the noble platform. I am also amazed at stalwarts who continue to contribute through & over a decade. My salutation to you too sir.
I continue to learn each day. I admit I am yet to go through the training manual you suggested. I am sure, I shall benefit from it once I start learning from it.
Besides the article on Household Stone tools in Karnataka, I request your help on another article Chigali. I requested for photos to upload on the article Chigali from one of the websites. They replied today that I can use the pics. Could you kindly help in this regard,

1. I have email permission to use pics. Is it Ok to use?
2. If I can use it on the page, could you please guide me to the steps to do so?
3. Should any other permissions or procedure is required?

I am aware that I am taking your valuable time on such a trivial matter. My apologies.

Sincerely

--Kireadsalot (talk) 16:39, 2 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@ ClemRutter, Hello

I wanted to share an update with you regarding the request for help in uploading of photos. I had requested for help from @Bgwhite: earlier. I got a reply for that. I am going about those steps now.

Thanks.

--Kireadsalot (talk) 08:46, 3 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Clem

We were discussing the Roehampton council estate at the meet up on Saturday, and just to let you know this is the one I had in mind: Alton Estate. I happened upon it during a cycle ride in the area a few weeks ago, having not realised it was there before. It looks like you haven't worked on that particular one yet! Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 13:40, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Amakuru: The Roehampton estate was renamed the Dover House Estate and had no article. At the time with 1212 houses it was a big estate. I was going to call it the article Roehampton estate but that title had been taken by Leutha for Roehampton estate- a slave colony Tooting, Roehampton, Putney is untrodden soil for me- and I found Alton Estate on the Roehampton article so I will look at it soon. The Roehampton article is beautifully written but if you Google certain of the more memorable phrases- a lot of it seems to be a c&p copyvio. Work needed there. The other thing that I notice is the absence of photos on commons so if you have a camera handy it will save me a journey. I am pressing on with Dover House today but I will add a few tweaks to Alton soon. --ClemRutter (talk) 15:01, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, of course. That will give me an excuse to get back on the bike and go check that out in the next couple of weeks. Thanks, and good luck with the Dover House work!  — Amakuru (talk) 15:32, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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In particular, referring to other editors' views as "stupidity" in title and style discussions, like Talk:Woodhead_Line#Requested move 17 December 2016, is the sort of unnecessary, personalized hostility that ArbCom case was getting at and which has resulted in sanctions being applied. Wikipedia not a social media debate forum, it's a collaborative work project. Please be civil in disagreements and try to resolve to consensus, not win fights.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  17:57, 17 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Following up on this, you referred to "the total stupidity of the suggestion to change from the lines official name". I'm not that offended, as I'm used to wikipedians over-reacting to ideas they don't like, but I'm still at loss to understand what you're relying on for the line's "official name". Early sources, when the line was in operation in the 19th century, never called it the Woodhead line; later (in the 20th century) it was known as the "Woodhead line". Did it at some point get an official name? Did anyone capitalize it while it was running? Where is the stupidity in trying to follow WP:NCCAPS and MOS:CAPS? Dicklyon (talk) 04:50, 18 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Don't be offended- never the intention. What you are trying to do in hitting out out over-capitalisation (case) is generally a good thing. Bravo for that. I first hit his article way back, but I don't believe I have edited it. One of the first thing you do with a new articles is to check the case, and the definite books for rail lines are the Ian Allan Series. These were the basis for many of our articles. Working with the degree of trust we had for each other judgement we could recognise from the history whether the article was factually solid. Ian Allan are print books and are not digitised yet- but the railway buffs amongst us have them. in googling Ian Allen, I did find this publication

Bairstow, Martin. The Sheffield Ashton Under Lyne & Manchester Railway. The Woodhead Line. A detailed history and photographic study of the line containing a significant number of electric locomotive photographs. (pb) Published by author, 1986, pp72, isbn 0 9510302 4 8. VG (small inscription) £7

I was not intending to go into a full linguistic analysis of word usage along the line of the Woodhead route (which is how it has been referred to in Parliament since 2013) to distinguish between the old Woodhead Line and a potential reopened line on that route, the usage as Woodhead line as a shortform for the Woodhead rail line-- and the misusage by subeds on reliable papers known for their typos.

Trusting the expert editors of the past, rerunning those arguments is stupid. What we must do is look to our policy guidelines and see if we are allowed to use that name. We do. As I have now said elsewhere:

MOS:GEOUNITS (Institutions) gives categories of permitted use for Institutions and Geographical entities. The Woodhead Line is a clear geographical identity- it has a starting point, and finishing point, it is 41.5 miles long and has a defined width. The Panama Canal is 48 miles long .

You may not be aware of the political sensitivity of this line- (Google HS2 HS3 Northern Powerhouse) so the article will be watched-- this is a hell of a can of worms. ClemRutter (talk) 10:37, 18 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Merry Christmas from me! Thanks for your company during 2016. Un-Festive?? We need to celebrate We have seen the percentage of articles on women rise from 15.5% to 16.77%. 20% is within our grasp and that's an increase of nearly a third% over what we first found. J24 is near the Coopers Arms (my local) Victuallers (talk) 15:50, 23 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It is on my to do list for next time I visit Sherwood- and the grandchildren. ClemRutter (talk) 16:26, 23 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

On 28 February 2017, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Oroville Dam crisis, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that nine million fish were rescued from the Feather River Fish Hatchery during the 2017 Oroville Dam crisis (pictured)? You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Oroville Dam crisis), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Hi Clem, I made a new draft on Theatremaker and Comedian Jess Thom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Jess_Thom

I've used your 'Disability Arts' template, and I've added 'Wikiproject Disability' template to the talk page...I think I'm starting to get the hang of this Wikipedia thing! Finally!

I would love your feedback on the article, and hope you're well. JTdisabilityartsonline (talk) 11:54, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@JTdisabilityartsonline: "I think I'm starting to get the hang of this Wikipedia thing! " I think you are! That's an excelllent piece of work .

As to constructive comments- well that is a hard task. I have read it twice now and nothing has jumped out of the page. So I went to Talk:Billy Connolly to compare. This is a B rated article- so I also hoped to find a reference to the Assessment criteria. Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Assessment#Quality_scale I expanded out the criteria for a B. I think that is where you are aiming.

In the Lead bold the subject- what is a theatre-maker, that needs a wikilink. The infobox is there but I think we do need a photo- as she is alive and prominent I think just using a copyrighted newspaper pick and calling it fair use wont work. Read more at Wikipedia:Non-free content#Policy. There is room for more wikilinking- particularly terms that non-theatre people might not know. Obviously don't go for over linking but there is only I link in the Disability Activism section. There is nothing explicit in the lead describing her role in DActivism and it should be there, both to create the synopsis and to hammer home her notability.

I look forward to seeing what the Draft assessor comes up with. Then when it is launched we can see again what we both have missed. Exciting.ClemRutter (talk) 14:32, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

		A beer on me!
		For getting Leekfrith torcs onto the mainspace so quickly. Good to see it here in a good state already. Cheers!Zakhx150 (talk) 08:19, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Why is adding a wikilink to 2017 California floods at all controversial? I don't see any existing discussion of this on the talk page. Antony–22 (^talk⁄_contribs) 05:33, 5 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Antony-22: I think this is a continuation of the discussions of 16th February, and tying to make the lead compliant with MOS. We should have the the title as the first wl'd bolded item in the first sentence. We haven't. My POV is your fact is vital, It should be in the first sentence. It should/must be there as the second mentioned fact- but not first as it take undue prominence. I can't see a way to do that- hence I hoped that others would come up with a magic solution through discussion.--ClemRutter (talk) 10:31, 5 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, MOS says that the title does not have to be present or bolded in the first sentence when a descriptive title is used: WP:BOLDAVOID. The point that the wikilink should be later in the lead is a valid one, so I'll look for another place to put it. Antony–22 (^talk⁄_contribs) 19:37, 5 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Antony-22: Perfect. I see that 2017 California floods is one of your articles (well with a little help from your friends). And I was winging about this article lead! This Oroville article is good on the specifics but has no context- and the meteorological/ climatological cause I believe should be included in order to satisfy the general reader. Either before of after ==Investigation==, or if you are feeling brave in ==Background==. We are missing also a ==See also== where the overtopping at Anderson Lake (California) could get a link.

All these articles are important for the Global warming debate so we need to have them 'President proof'. Looking at 2017 California floods, the first sentence reads:

The high-amplitude ridge off the West Coast that characterized the 2011–17 California drought was replaced by a persistent presence of anomalous troughs impacting California. Another feature in the 2013–2015 winters was the extreme temperature contrast between a warm western U.S. and a cold eastern continent. These anomalous temperature and circulation patterns were referred to as the North American winter “dipole”.

That is going to fun to edit! I'll keep watching and may be will dive in after Wednesday's edit-athon. ClemRutter (talk) 00:00, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I can't take too much credit for the 2017 California floods article; mainly I was surprised that it hadn't been started yet, so I split some text from other articles and added a few sentences of my own here and there. Mainly I wanted to provide a framework that others could build onto. Yes, the "Causes" section of that article isn't very good, and if you can improve it that would be great! Antony–22 (^talk⁄_contribs) 00:54, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited Secondary education, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Moravian. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

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Thanks Clem - I suspect we should have made more of your user guide at Newnham, but I wasn't expecting such a quality gift. A quick guide to the visual editor is missing. I am using your guide at Loughborough Uni on Friday and De Montfort Uni on Tuesday. Great gift - its on the Role Models page. Thanks Victuallers (talk) 20:30, 22 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Victuallers:

The most upto date version is on Women in Red Dropboxand I have done a |pdf. The only changes are cosmetic.

I haven't tried to do full coverage of Visual Editor as I don't use it and it is just not stable enough yet- their little tweaks in the screen formatting involves doing new screen dumps and even resetting the page- the kids screens have to look like the booklet six months after the event! I want to have a look at mobile phone editing too.

If you can provide some critical feedback on what works and what doesn't- it will be useful- you can email me a few photos of the the sheets covered in red pencil marks in the traditional way.

As I have said before these were never intended for distance learning or instruction- just a booklet to which a live tutor could refer when teaching a group of time-short professionals. It comes in multiples of 4 pages so it can be printed in A5 booklet form. It seems to have filled another niche too. So at the moment enjoy. ClemRutter (talk) 12:24, 23 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited Reformatory, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Hulks. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these opt-out instructions. Thanks, DPL bot (talk) 11:09, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Material you included in the above article appears to have been copied from the copyright web page http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:2ywfoIKO_RYJ:eprints.uwe.ac.uk/ or elsewhere online. Copying text directly from a source is a copyright violation. Unfortunately, for copyright reasons, the content had to be removed. Please leave a message on my talk page if you have any questions or if you think I made a mistake. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 22:12, 4 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Diannaa: Lets keep the conversation on one page. Great to chat. You know what I am attempting to do by looking on the talk page- sort out an article with multiple problems- I am grateful that you are helping. I have diffed the section below so we can work on- it is correctly sourced - and many of the words are the same. The subject is different, Richards is writing a list of goals for his students- that is the artistic effort. Here we are being encyclopedic and stating these as fact. He is using similar words in subsidary clauses, our work cannot be claimed to be derivative. Written as it was, it is a useful check list. So lets look at the bullet points and compare, and you can perhaps suggest improvements.

==Secondary School as an institution==

− restore

The secondary school is a fundamental unit in a functioning society

− New text- not covered in any way by reference- restore''

• sociological methods can aid our understanding of educational processes and systems

− compare with By the end of this chapter you should be able to 1. Explain how sociology can aid our understanding of educational processes and systems

• the key concepts and theoretical approaches in the sociology of education have changed over time

− compare with 2. Demonstrate an understanding of the key concepts and theoretical approaches in the sociology of education and how they have changed over time

• the social context, social diversity and inequality impact on educational processes and outcomes delivered by the secondary school

−compare with 3. Developed an awareness of social context, of social diversity and inequality and their impact on educational processes and outcomes

• different social groups achieve differential outcomes from engaging with education at the secondary level

− copare with 4. Explain in sociological terms why different social groups achieve differential outcomes from engaging with education

• research strategies and methods in gaining knowledge will impact on how the secondary school is seen

-compare with 5. Outline an understanding of the nature and appropriate use of research strategies and methods in gaining knowledge in the sociology of education

<ref>{{cite book|last1=Waller|first1=Richard|title=SOCIOLOGY OF EDUCATION|publisher=University of the West of England|location=Chapter 5|url=http://eprints.uwe.ac.uk/13671/1/Final_edited_Soc_of_E_22F8362.docx|accessdate=4 April 2017}}</ref>

- restore''

Each one is slightly or significantly different. So what Have I missed this time. ClemRutter (talk) 23:42, 4 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The addition was picked up by a bot and manually assessed by me. here is an assessment of the opverlap using Earwig's tool. The parts that are identical are highlighted (show up pink on my display). The differences between the source material and the material you added are inadequate to avoid copyvio, because it presents the same material in the same order using almost identical wording. That's why I removed the material. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 12:47, 5 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Diannaa: Interesting. I'll get back to you in a couple of days. ClemRutter (talk) 09:12, 8 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 22:54, 6 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This is my 24 000th edit.--ClemRutter (talk) 23:51, 12 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Congrats on a major milestone. Dicklyon (talk) 03:49, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. It appears that you copied or moved text from Clogging into Clog dancing. While you are welcome to re-use Wikipedia's content, here or elsewhere, Wikipedia's licensing does require that you provide attribution to the original contributor(s). When copying within Wikipedia, this is supplied at minimum in an edit summary at the page into which you've copied content, disclosing the copying and linking to the copied page, e.g., copied content from [[page name]]; see that page's history for attribution. It is good practice, especially if copying is extensive, to also place a properly formatted {{copied}} template on the talk pages of the source and destination. The attribution has been provided for this situation, but if you have copied material between pages before, even if it was a long time ago, please provide attribution for that duplication. You can read more about the procedure and the reasons at Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia. Thank you. If you are the sole author of the prose that was moved, attribution is not required. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 16:01, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I am on the Digital Marketing and Social Media masters module at Loughborough University and wanted to stop by to let you know that I have now started my Wikipedia journey!--RyanHarris19 (talk) 13:23, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Clem - This user is using your guide!! He has got confused because it was Roger Bamkin who gave it to him. Your guide is very useful and it is being used. Ryan - well done. my talk page is here Victuallers (talk) 10:10, 6 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings, @RyanHarris19:- Its good to know that I am now writing prescribed texts for Loughborough University! ;-) If there is any way I can clarify the mysteries of Wikipedia- come back to me on my Talk page or with an email- it is useful for me to have feedback on any of my booklets and text and suggestions for improvements. I haven't followed up on what the Digital Marketing and Social Media masters actually covers- so suggestions on how I/we can focus the material would be helpful.--ClemRutter (talk) 11:22, 6 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Victuallers:I was toying with the idea of formatting the pages for Wikibooks or Wikiversity. Is this worthwhile? If so which? Whats missing? Is there a better way?--ClemRutter (talk) 11:22, 6 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Learning points so far - Admins who see two new users looking at the same article on the same day assume its a sock.

Do register your account days and ideally weeks before you need it. On the other hand - dont assume that you can just type stuff press save save and that will be it. If you have an assignment then complete it a week before the deadline (leave some contingency).

Personally I've been surprised to find that users sand boxes can easily get reverted. They need watching over. Are you interested in helping to look over this group? They are all rushing for the deadline and they are getting some pushback from other editors. Victuallers (talk) 12:12, 6 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If you want something done ask a busy man. Sure. I'll give a hand. Do you Want to send me a few links and a list of your ducklings. ClemRutter (talk) 12:41, 6 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well I guess you know how good you are. Ive created a list of the user names here. They know about refs and not cutting and pasting and the sandbox. They were using the visual editor. They are trying to write stuff about digital marketing.... Victuallers (talk) 18:21, 6 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Clem,

My name is Jordan Chappell and I'm a on the Msc Marketing course at Loughborough University. --Jordapedia (talk) 17:43, 9 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Did you know?

Did you know that you can review your changes visually?

When you are finished editing the page, type your edit summary and then choose "Review your changes".

In visual mode, you will see additions, removals, new links, and formatting highlighted. Other changes, such as changing the size of an image, are described in notes on the side.

Click the toggle button to switch between visual and wikitext diffs.

The wikitext diff is the same diff tool that is used in the wikitext editors and in the page history.

You can read and help translate the user guide, which has more information about how to use the visual editor.

Since the last newsletter, the VisualEditor Team has spent most of their time supporting the 2017 wikitext editor mode which is available inside the visual editor as a Beta Feature, and adding the new visual diff tool. Their workboard is available in Phabricator. You can find links to the work finished each week at mw:VisualEditor/Weekly triage meetings. Their current priorities are fixing bugs, supporting the 2017 wikitext editor as a beta feature, and improving the visual diff tool.

Recent changes

A new wikitext editing mode is available as a Beta Feature on desktop devices. The 2017 wikitext editor has the same toolbar as the visual editor and can use the citoid service and other modern tools. Go to Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-betafeatures to enable the ⧼Visualeditor-preference-newwikitexteditor-label⧽.

A new visual diff tool is available in VisualEditor's visual mode. You can toggle between wikitext and visual diffs. More features will be added to this later. In the future, this tool may be integrated into other MediaWiki components. [12]

The team have added multi-column support for lists of footnotes. The <references /> block can automatically display long lists of references in columns on wide screens. This makes footnotes easier to read. You can request multi-column support for your wiki. [13]

Other changes:

• You can now use your web browser's function to switch typing direction in the new wikitext mode. This is particularly helpful for RTL language users like Urdu or Hebrew who have to write JavaScript or CSS. You can use Command+Shift+X or Control+Shift+X to trigger this. [14]
• The way to switch between the visual editing mode and the wikitext editing mode is now consistent. There is a drop-down menu that shows the two options. This is now the same in desktop and mobile web editing, and inside things that embed editing, such as Flow. [15]
• The Categories item has been moved to the top of the Page options menu (from clicking on the icon) for quicker access. [16] There is also now a "Templates used on this page" feature there. [17]
• You can now create <chem> tags (sometimes used as <ce>) for chemical formulas inside the visual editor. [18]
• Tables can be set as collapsed or un-collapsed. [19]
• The Special character menu now includes characters for Canadian Aboriginal Syllabics and angle quotation marks (‹› and ⟨⟩) . The team thanks the volunteer developer, Tpt. [20]
• A bug caused some section edit conflicts to blank the rest of the page. This has been fixed. The team are sorry for the disruption. [21]
• There is a new keyboard shortcut for citations: Control+Shift+K on a PC, or Command+Shift+K on a Mac. It is based on the keyboard shortcut for making links, which is Control+K on a PC or Command+K on a Mac. [22]

Future changes

• The VisualEditor team is working with the Community Tech team on a syntax highlighting tool. It will highlight matching pairs of <ref> tags and other types of wikitext syntax. You will be able to turn it on and off. It will first become available in VisualEditor's built-in wikitext mode, maybe late in 2017. [23]
• The kind of button used to Show preview, Show changes, and finish an edit will change in all WMF-supported wikitext editors. The new buttons will use OOjs UI. The buttons will be larger, brighter, and easier to read. The labels will remain the same. You can test the new button by editing a page and adding &ooui=1 to the end of the URL, like this: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Sandbox?action=edit&ooui=1 The old appearance will no longer be possible, even with local CSS changes. [24]
• The outdated 2006 wikitext editor will be removed later this year. It is used by approximately 0.03% of active editors. See a list of editing tools on mediawiki.org if you are uncertain which one you use. [25]

If you aren't reading this in your preferred language, then please help us with translations! Subscribe to the Translators mailing list or contact us directly, so that we can notify you when the next issue is ready. Thank you! User:Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 19:18, 9 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, my name is Silvia and I am on your Digital Marketing and Social Media course at Loughborough university.--Silviagua (talk) 01:48, 10 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Silviagua: Welcome on board, if you need me to do read over a draft- or have questions I will be here on-line this evening and tomorrow. ClemRutter (talk) 07:18, 10 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think some information does not need an attached citation. For an establishment like this, it is largely going to be internal knowledge. Students of the school know it is true, but there may not be a source to confirm it. Some citations - if you read them - are totally irrelevant and do not assist in providing information. They seem to be there just to 'tick the box'. -Sb2001 (talk) 19:02, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Sb2001: In a state school, I would be able to knock off those references from the annual governors report to parents, or in the prospectus issued at secondary school transfer- or the adverts taken out by the school in the local press at transfer time. I am sure, that someone must have written a recent history. The problem comes when the article starts to look for GA status and this 'petty' points will be raised then. It is better to do it now. And until you have a reference you are not safe from roaming- deletionistas. Yes, there are articles that are over-referenced, one can spend an amusing 20 minutes cleaning them up- but here my rule is 'one interesting fact', 'explain where it can be verified (drop in a ref), and then a line in the edit summary to say what you have done. It is important to demonstrate this in schools articles to set a good example to the next generation of editors. ClemRutter (talk) 19:52, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

We're also not in a position to include "internal knowledge" material of any kind if it cannot be verified with a published source. Doesn't matter how true it may be.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  07:41, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

{{Navbox with collapsible groups}}

Have a look at Swedish post-war prefabricated houses. A friend of mine lives in one and I am trying to persuade him to take some photos inside!Leutha (talk) 06:34, 3 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have been a little occupied doing some forensics producing Lancaster West Estate- and one of the buildings that was part of the scheme. Do join in. John has started Wikipedia:WikiProject Social Housing in the United Kingdom which will require a little muscle to get started. See you Sunday. --ClemRutter (talk) 08:35, 3 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This had been created in response to the part you commented on at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Grenfell_Tower_fire#A_sub-page.3F_Discuss.

Grenfell Tower casualties

79.77.193.0 (talk) 19:05, 5 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

79.77.221.247 (talk) 14:09, 8 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your edit to Public housing in the United Kingdom. I found the article while researching what was meant by "council housing." It was jarring to see the catchy phrase "homes fit for heroes," clearly someone's snappy wordsmithing, without quotarion marks or in-text attribution. I changed it to common terminology, then you restored it with quotes, which is an improvement over the article as I found it, since it implies the phrase is not just some Wikipedia editor's creation. How about if the section explained that it was the theme of a movement and was coined by Lloyd George, since your edit summary is not going to be easily accessible to future readers? I doubt that anyone outside the UK is familiar with the term's history. Your edit comment that it is being explained in the cited book is not adequate, since few will drive miles to consult the book(not viewable online) in some university library. As an aside, I got interested in British housing after watching a TV show "Can't pay? We'll take it away" in which 2 repo men who are "sheriffs" show up with a writ from the "High Court" to politely evict tenants who haven't paid their rent in months, and have ignored eviction notices. Regards. Edison (talk) 23:39, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Edison:.It is such a common phrase, that we overlook the fact that there may be folk who don't know it.Yes something can be done- it is about fitting it all in. I have added a further online link- and wikilinked to Homes fit for heroes which redirects to Council house#Homes fit for heroes (1918–1923). This still needs a efn- to explain the Lloyd George 24 Nov 1918 speech."Lloyd George's Ministry Men | World War I Centenary". ww1centenary.oucs.ox.ac.uk. Retrieved 13 July 2017. You may have noticed that a group of us are setting up WP:SHUK, and we would be glad if you joined us. We have been distracted by the need to research and document Grenfell Tower and the Lancaster West Estate. --ClemRutter (talk) 00:20, 13 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Just to say -> Thanks and appreciated. About Reconstruction, you find a video in NDR or Stftung Maritim Facebook or even Peking Verein about it. Yard first Man explains what they plan to do with her, this was on last monday at brunsbüttel south port press conference, almost in detail. Of course I tried to resume the whole history in short easy words. If I was not succeed, sorry. I really do not know which language I really speak, today is a mix of many and many people complain about all my abilities. We at home made our own language to say the truth, a mix of many. So living is an issue. As for me now the most important are animals and today I received a bad news of young lion lovey dovey in mexico, who has a spinal bad tumor and probably will die soon with only 1.5 years old at black jaguar white tiger foundation, my head became sad, because I love the lion, so the Peking was slept to end priority. Well, did 129 pictures of BAP UNION & further PEKING on river to yard... however I kept them in my facebook group, where I fully administrate, and leave wiki for you experts. At home, I prefer no 'fighting' anymore with humans situations. It was festive, much people of all kind and finally fireworks at yard.... It is in your hands, I left some links and all is in internet. Great Luck Regards. --88.70.20.21 (talk) 20:30, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Please correct Link '5' > First Aid > http://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/schleswig-holstein/Die-Peking-braucht-dringend-Erste-Hilfe,peking1296.html & http://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/schleswig-holstein/Pressekonferenz-zur-Rueckkehr-der-Peking,peking1318.html & https://www.facebook.com/Viermaster.Peking/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.70.20.21 (talk) 21:15, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Leave it with me a few days. Und Mischmaschsprache- kein problem. ClemRutter (talk) 08:44, 5 Augu

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The Wikipedia Library

Books & Bytes
Issue 23, June-July 2017

• Library card
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Sent by MediaWiki message delivery on behalf of The Wikipedia Library team --MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 02:03, 23 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

	The Real Life Barnstar
	Nice to meet you ClemRutter, look forward to doing it again. — fortunavelut luna 11:31, 11 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Clem, trying to send a Wiki message No idea if this right, very confusing setup it is).I've download your image: March for Europe, 3nd September 2016, the march to Parliament Square. Cockspur Street then Trafalgar Square for use in a short article about Brexit in a Scandinavian education mag 'The School Times'. Thanks for making it available. Best from the EU Schooltimes (talk) 08:39, 14 September 2017 (UTC)schooltimes[reply]

Thanks- glad to be of assistance. --ClemRutter (talk) 14:07, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Regarding your comment on the AN/I 1RR discussion, here's a link to my content edits for the last 7 days [26]. If I've counted correctly, that's 148 edits, including substantial contributions to The Economic Consequences of the Peace. It's true that that's quite a low count for me for a week, but it happened to coincide with a week in which I started a new work project, and spent much more then my usual time in rehearsal.

I'm quite sure that I spend too much time on the noticeboards, but I do try to not let it get in the way of working on content. I will also acknowledge that I am far from a perfect editor, and have a full panoply of personal foibles, but I really am dedicated to improving the encyclopedia in whatever I do. People can certainly differ in good faith about the particulars, but I can assure you that my motivations and intentions are always proper.

In any case, thanks for your comment in that discussion. If I used your name previously in a way that offended you, I apologize for that.

Best, Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:34, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The reason I removed it was obvious.

PLUTO IS NOT A FREAKING PLANET. SERIOUSLY. THE COLUMN SAYS PLANET. PLUTO IS NOT ONE. THUS I REMOVED THE ROW.

Sincerely, a very irritated editor. 8.40.151.110 (talk) 03:41, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

(talk page stalker);and that obviously gives you the right to be RUDE; My Excellent Man Just Showed Us Nine Planets.....Edmund Patrick – confer 07:35, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not ending up as Cassini–Huygens

Thank you for engaging with me on my talk page- but it wasn't really necessary, all that was required was for you provide a source (a reference) to your obvious fact, and a clear explanation in the ed an it summary. By editing using ip address, everyone who monitors these pages will assume you are a vandal, you could head this off by editing under a clearer user name. Looking at your edit history, you have caused yourself a lot of grief in the past, when your clarity of thought should have been lauded. We have an encyclopedia to write- and you are a part of it- shouting at your co-workers is never the correct solution, but enough of that onward with task and do ping me when you have a user name. I am cross posting this as I am not sure what you have tagged. ClemRutter (talk) 08:35, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. Binksternet (talk) 23:28, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No- @Binksternet: everything has been signalled on the talk page. Each of my edits has built on the original text. You and another editor have chosen to delete referenced text. I am satisfied that my current version is robust, and provides a base page for future reversions when others choose to rebuild the page if there are further deletions. Please use the talk page to discuss any issues you may have.ClemRutter (talk) 23:41, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What complete nonsense. You supplied a terribly unreliable blog post and a Youtube link at first, then you reposted the blog source along with IMDb, hoping that would cement your text. Unfortunately, the text you supplied was your own fabrication, based not at all on the cited sources. If that's your "robust" version then you have very great challenges to surmount. Binksternet (talk) 23:47, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Anyway it is good to talk. The fact is that it is there- and shaky or not it is a substantial site, and if you read the reference you will see it if fairly anodyne. If you have time to look for a better reference feel free- I am not a youtube or film buff but may have seen the movie when it first came out- I am sure that a film buff will be able to lay their hands on it in seconds. Have you any better wording in mind? In doing deletions you need to be careful not to lose any data- and I do think that describing a deletion 'as editors work' is stretching a point. Looking at the references for some of the films, they do contain a lot of additional information which we shouldn't lose- I would be tempted to split them- and put some of that stuff in an efn so they appear as a separate footnote- but alternatively, they are wandering away from the articles title (off-focus), so the footnotes would be UNDUE. Any ideas? ClemRutter (talk) 00:07, 28 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If you're looking for advice I would say read through the policy WP:No original research a few times. The text you offer up to readers should be a summary of published sources rather than your own creation. If you cannot find published sources to support an idea for a Wikipedia contribution then don't post the contribution.

Also, it's not enough that a notional list entry in nude swimming can be confirmed to contain some amount of nude swimming. The proposed list entry must have been noticed by third party observers publishing in reliable sources. If none of these can be found then the proposed entry is not important to the topic and should not be added. Binksternet (talk) 00:33, 28 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Please see and contribute to the discussion on the talk page. I am minded to delete the section on the slave trade on grounds of irrelevance - if you disagree please say why Brownturkey (talk) 16:17, 8 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I just noticed your comment on the two William Crosleys on Talk:Macclesfield Canal and have responded there. Regards. Bob1960evens (talk) 12:13, 17 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Using the adverb "highly" is voicing an opinion, so the same really applies if you had added "ridiculously" or "barely". If you have sources that define how they are selective in a factual manner, then feel free to add. I'm not certain why this needs to be in the lead sentence though, calling them selective would appear to be adequate. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 21:03, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Escape Orbit: I was just on your talk page- I think the comment stands, but we can discuss it here:

"Greetings. I agree 'highly' could be seen as POV. However I don't believe you had time to read Peter Read's article and the Telegraph article, or to google further before you, in good faith, reverted. This has been a serious issue in Kent and Bromley since 1968! Would you like to study the literature and suggest an alternative wording that will not be seen as party political. If you read the current controversy at Olave's you will see that this little word was deliberate. I hasten to add I did not write the original text."--ClemRutter (talk) 21:08, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Its all in the references, on receiving Circular 10/66 and 11/68. the 2 local authorities fought tooth and nail not to introduce comprehensive education. Kent did so by looking at the wording, and putting forward a scheme- where it would trial comprehensive schools in 4 small areas saying if the experiment was successful then they would roll them out gradually. Bromley introduced comps- but redefined two schools as super-selectives, a term no-one had heard off, these were 'locally' described as highly selective schools with their own entrance exams. The reference tell the story, and provide the source WP needs for use of one of the words.

The dilemma is that for the general reader, super-selective is just an obscure technical term, that would need a lot of explanation while 'highly' is a common (albeit POV-laden) word. Missing it out would suggest that Bromley was breaking the law (a deeply held Labour Party belief). As a former governor of a Kent Comprehensive, I daren't go too deep as that could generate a WP:COI allegation. -- ClemRutter (talk) 21:34, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the problem. "Highly" appears to be an opinion, "super selective" is obscure, and appears to be something a pupil might jokingly add. My question is; does this need to be in the lead sentence? Can the school's selection process not be covered later in the article, where it can be explained properly? Why does it need to be the very first thing said about the school? --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 17:47, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Escape Orbit and Black Kite: If I had an answer- I would have quietly been "bold". Pupils in Bromley, Bexley, NW Kent would not joke about this- though they might elsewhere. A thousand sets of parents compete to get their nice kids into one of the 120 places- by extreme coaching, tutoring Saturday and Sunday classes, memorising past papers- buying test questions- all so they won't end up going to a grammar (sic) school. The other side of the problem is that Olaves is not a 'selective' school. It does not appear on the list of 'selective' schools they may go to if they pass the Kent test (Eleven Plus). These would include Bexley Grammar School, Dartford Grammar School, Betts, Syd and Chis etc. Comparable Direct grant grammar schools in the north of England such as Manchester Grammar School went independent. In short, it is the most significant fact that a parent needs to read- it is the most significant fact that a journalist needs to read before they try to explain the nature of the existing scandals. Sadly it needs to be in the lead.

So, back to 'highly'. A solution may be to use a hyphen, highly-selective may work, or just leave be and attach a {{efn}} that could contain a synopsis of this discussion. ClemRutter (talk) 20:37, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If it is, as you say, the most significant fact then it should be easy to find a source to cite. I've yet to see one that supports this description for either school. It also can't be emphasised enough that Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, not a parents' guide to good schools. (I also doubt any parent with designs on sending their child to either school is using the lead sentence on Wikipedia articles to instruct them.) Your suggestion of a {{efn}} also looks like a suggestion that original research and synthesis may function as a cite. It may not. Please find a source to directly support what is appearing on the article. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 21:48, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Here, just trying to be helpful- If I had the solution I would have done it. You could try this its not a site I have probed for RS. Now Chelsfield this is RS]- and may be what you are looking for. A blog in a RS Huffingdon Post is possible too. A commercial site talks about coaching for super-selectives but adds Dartford Grammar to the list (which personally I query) along with Skinners and Judds that I can accept. [The Telegraph] attempts to define super-selectives (note hyphen) in terms of scoring on the Kent Test (417 out of 420), and the good school guide links to a description of pass marks on the Kent test.

All this providing of references seems too close to OR and WP:SYNTH for the purist. Do you find what you need there? Failing that I see that there is another solution emerging, that may work. Write a stub on super-selectives, written from the perspective of the Kent test criteria- then link to super-selective from the Olaves ans NW page- it would satisfy my objection to writing a falsehood, and your objection to 'highly'. It would be time consuming to work that up past a 'B' though. ClemRutter (talk) 23:53, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Of the links you provide, I think this one] gets closest to what is needed, and it's not brilliant. This one has the air of a personal website to it. It offers no indication of who runs it and doesn't look professional. The others, as you indicate, merely discuss what a super-selective school is and provide no verification about Olave's or Newstead Wood.

I ask again; why do you think that this confusing definition has to be in the lead sentence at all? If it requires explanation and a factual demonstration of accuracy then there is plenty of space in the article to expand on it. Your idea of a super-selective stub may work, but an easier solution is simply to remove it from the lead. It's not essential that it appears there.

Could we also continue this discussion on Talk:St_Olave's_Grammar_School, so that other may better contribute? --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 13:41, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Just in case you're interested, time when people sponsored dials as a mark of recognition. Edmund Patrick – confer 16:26, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Template:Infobox UK school has been nominated for merging with Template:Infobox school. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Thank you. Steven (Editor) (talk) 20:13, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

FYI: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Schools#Coordinators. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 13:20, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hello again Clem, hope all is well. the wiki article The Ambassadors (Holbein) lists a blue link Universal equinoctial dial (disassembled) which sends the reader to, guess what, Sundials. I can understand the confusion as the painting was created in 1533. So one of the articles is either wrong on date or wrong on type of time measuring equipment is shown.where do we go next? Edmund Patrick – confer 11:21, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

unless the important part is the word "ring". ambassadors says Universal equinoctial dial whereas the editor is looking for a universal equinoctial ring dial. maybe suitable working in the article to stop further confusion? Yours Edmund Patrick – confer 11:27, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Astronomical rings#Traveller's sundial or universal equinoctal ring dial discusses them all quite thoroughly. I really think that Mr Holbein should have been more diligent in his use of Wikipedia, or at least John North should have consulted with the Wellcome Library Media related to Astronomical instruments at Wikimedia Commons --ClemRutter (talk) 14:58, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

School articles are typical targets for vandalism, and unsourced additions (particularly alumni). Don't be too timid about getting them protected or vandal accounts blocked. Quickest and most efficient is to ask me direct on my talk page. As you have seen, I usually react quite quickly. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 15:21, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And Fortimere School in particular

@Kudpung: I find that this is an interesting case study.

Firstly I have had a look at all our top importance UK schools. No comprehensives, no state schools, no girls schools and only one mixed-school. And 50% in West London, all in the south. This seems wildly imbalanced. I can understand Eton but why not Benenden or Roedean. I can understand Summerhill but why not the Stantonbury Campus. Eton is tiny with 1250 pupils, Nottingham Academy has 3870. Why not Manchester Grammar School (1515) 211 notable alumni or Stoneyhurst (163 alumni including 3 saints), both are north of the Mersey? Do the criteria need to be examined again?

Secondly we are short of model articles on state schools where we can direct new users looking for inspiration. Could you bring it up to a B, or pen a few lines to explain how it fails- this school has the advantage of being a foundation school and history. The comparison it could be useful when writing WP:WPSCH/AG and explaining assessment. ClemRutter (talk) 17:23, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm teaching again at Loughborough University next month - and we'll be using your guide. Although not decided whether to focus on visual editing yet. All the best Victuallers (talk) 15:41, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Victuallers:. If there are any changes to be made- let me know. There is a very easy warm-up task for undergraduates. If they look at {{Infobox UK school}} on any schools page they will not normally find |pushpin_map = Derbyshire it is a very quick way to make a spectacular difference. See Lees Brook Community School Thirty students doing 20 or so edits in different counties- could make a lot of progress. I am interested in watching undergrads trying to edit on their mobile phones- it sure beats me, but maybe their fingers and brains have evolved to the point where it is possible. At any rate, having a phone friendly tutorial material is worth thinking about.ClemRutter (talk) 16:54, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Clem, These are masters students - mostly Chinese, but I'm not sure I'm up to teaching it on a phone!! Victuallers (talk) 17:14, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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Hallo Clem, Cash's exists - rather than proposing a merge formally, would you like to just turn your new item into a redirect? (My parents used up our old school nametapes, just the surname, putting them into the coats and jackets which they regularly left behind at meetings etc!) PamD 22:28, 12 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And Companies House https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08630374 seems to show that the company number became GFKK Ltd and then Cash's Apparel Solutions. PamD 22:30, 12 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I also remember buying for my parents a splendid luggage strap with their unusual surname woven into it, which I then passed on to a male cousin, the only remaining holder of the surname in the family, on their demise! Was reminded because the site at https://jjcash.co.uk/woven-collection.php still shows luggage straps. PamD 22:34, 12 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Good to work together again. I came across these again when I was looking at small article on school uniforms in England and the public schools usually specified a mandatory supplier- and they insisted on using Cash's name tapes by name. I have set up the redirect to an anchor, but I think that there is more that can be added- it does explain the By Royal Appointment bit. --ClemRutter (talk) 23:22, 12 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]