Template talk:China–Hong Kong border crossings

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. This close is reflective on the like move that was proposed for the category. The discussion was slightly in favor of keeping the old name and there was not a consensus to retain the new name. Hence returning to the old name. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:02, 14 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move.

Template:Guangdong – Hong Kong border crossings → Template:China – Hong Kong border crossings – 17:46, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the recent move from Template:China – Hong Kong border crossings to Template:Guangdong – Hong Kong border crossings. I would agree that the former name was a bit silly, since Hong Kong, after all, a SAR of PRC, and is usually viewed on Chinese maps as one of the 34 province-level units (along with all provinces [including Taiwan Province], autonomous regions, national-level municipalities, and Macao SAR).. The latter name is geographically correct in that the border crossings are physically on the way between HKSAR and Guangdong province. However, what the crossings are really about is the border between two legal domains - i.e. a customs and immigration border, as well as a border separating zones with two legal regimes with respect to various things (such as driving on the right/left). "One country, two systems", as they officially say. There are no "border crossings" like this between. When one crosses the border, one gets a passport stamp from the PRC migration department, not from some provincial Guangdong agency. The construction of the crossing and the modality of their operation were probably negotiated between the HKSAR government and the national government in Beijing, rather than between the HKSAR and Guangdong provincial government. The neidi ("the interior", the mainland China, or whatever you call it), i.e. the area within which the customs, immigration, laws-of-the-road etc. rules set in Beijing operate, is the entity with which HKSAR (or Macao SAR) borders. So I would think something like Template:Mainland China – Hong Kong border crossings would be most appropriate for the template and category in question.

The recent renaming was not an isolated step; there were also similar undiscussed changes within the articles involved, and in the Macao articles and template. This ought to be discussed in a centralized way instead of an edit war. -- Vmenkov (talk) 15:36, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree this could be discussed for a better solution. What I laid out in the last few days is better than what was here before so I hope that can stabilize without the disruption from a banned user (the IP address and one of his current sock usernames).

I do disagree that "Mainland China" is the best name for the template and category. That name works from the intra-country perspective as it differentiates two political jurisdictions, particularly from the POV within HK/MO, but it does not work from a global perspective. Our solution must be NPOV, but politically and geographically accurate. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

The solution I do like is to explain in the text. Use prose to explain in the introduction that it is a Chinese {whatever} between {point a} province and {point b} SAR. That sets up the distinction that it is intra-country, and links appropriately to the political definitions why. Categories and templates can't have that much text in their name, so it is understood it might not represent the complete spectrum of views. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Well, the term we use does not have to be "mainland China", but when we talk about borders like this, we need to have something that concisely enough expresses the concept of the "territory of PRC other than HKSAR and Macau SAR", or "PRC customs and immigration zone". This is something for which 内地 seems to be used in China commonly enough (and for which "mainland [China]" seems to be a commonly used, non-neologism, English translation). The use of 内地 in China to refer to the "territory of PRC other than HKSAR and Macau SAR" seems to be quite widespread, e.g. in the context of talking about the Gongbei PoE: http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=%E6%8B%B1%E5%8C%97%E5%8F%A3%E5%B2%B8&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&source=hp&q=%22%E6%8B%B1%E5%8C%97%E5%8F%A3%E5%B2%B8%22+%22%E5%86%85%E5%9C%B0%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=ad8d00e26666dd60 Thousands of hits there, including plenty of .gov.cn sites: http://www.google.com/search?q=%E6%8B%B1%E5%8C%97%E5%8F%A3%E5%B2%B8+%E5%86%85%E5%9C%B0+site%3A.gov.cn&hl=en&num=10&lr=&ft=i&cr=&safe=off&tbs= They talk about "内地旅客" (mainland travelers/tourists), 内地居民 (mainland residents), etc. Gongbei itself is described (at the official site of the border inspection office) as "内地与澳门的重要口岸", i.e. "important entry point between the mainland and Macau". So I really don't see anything politically inappropriate (or even PoV in general) about saying 内地/mainland in the context of discussing borders.

I am looking at this official site of the PRC border inspection in Zhuhai. In Chinese they call themselves 珠海出入境边检总站 (literally, something like "Zhuhai entry-exit border inspection general station"), in English, "Zhuhai General Station of Exit and Enter Frontier Inspection of the PRC"). Talking about their role, they say that they are entrusted with "为国把守国门", i.e. "guarding the country's gate". They talk about their role as a national agency, protecting the country, and not the particular province they are in. (So this is different e.g. from fruit-fly quarantine checks between some states of Australia). Nary a word about Guangdong there. So I believe they are very much viewed as part of the nation's external border protection system. (There is, of course, no contradiction between this and the assertion of PRC sovereignty over the SARs; after all, a country may choose to "excise" a particular part of its national territory out of its migration/customs zone for a number of reasons. E.g., the US may have special visa/customs rules for Guam, North Mariana Islands, or Virgin Islands, and have full immigration/customs checks - same as for international flights - for travelers between those places and the US proper.) -- Vmenkov (talk) 18:05, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree mainland is often used for convenience, but when it is more proper, there is often a definition that is quite explicit, for instance the footnotes to treaties and such will define "the customs territory of China". And I still maintain that using mainland in that way is an intra-China usage, Wikipedia is written from a global usage.

Another potential outcome is just to delete the template altogether as superfluous to {{Immigration Control Stations in Hong Kong}} (et al for Macau). There is enough overlap already.

More later, the sun came out. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

• OPPOSE. If you use the name "China - Hong Kong border crossings", are you going to list all the ports in mainland China that can be reached directly from Hong Kong then? The "Guangdong – Hong Kong border crossings" shows the border crossing points (or immigration control points) specifically between Guangdong and Hong Kong in geographic terms; there's nothing wrong with that. STSC (talk) 10:39, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• OPPOSE. I'm baffled by the proposed move. The current name appears to be descriptive, precise and unambiguous. I don't see how changing 'Guangdong' for China is an improvement: after all Hong Kong is a part of China; Hong Kong's only physical border with the mainland only exists in Guangdong province. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 10:21, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose HK is part of China. This makes no sense. It's like saying the United States-Utah border crossings. 184.144.163.181 (talk) 04:12, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• support the previous name was descriptive precise and unambiguous. There are no border crossings between Hong Kong and China that don't go through Guangzhou, so that is no more precise. Or for added precision it might as well be renamed Guangdong – New Territories border crossings which is clearly unnecessary. The reason for restoring the name of a week ago is the common names of the territories that the border is between are 'Hong Kong' and 'China'. Many readers may not be familiar with Guangzhou or may know it under a different name (it's not very long ago that 'Canton' was more familiar in English, even in Hong Kong). Few readers will not know what 'China' and 'Hong Kong' refer to so as long as they are vaguely aware of the geography of south China will know which border this concerns.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 01:29, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I guess that what is meant here is Guangdong (province) instead of Guangzhou (city). In fact no border crossing between Hong Kong and China goes through Guangzhou. Or to be accurate, there is one, at the airport. There were ferries between the 2 cities in the past as well, with associated immigration processing. olivier (talk) 16:16, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per John Blackburne, and per Ajax Smack's comment at Template talk:Guangdong - Macau border crossings. 203.198.25.249 (talk) 14:27, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Support because the border is not merely an issue between a province and Hong Kong. The crossings are staffed by central government officials, not provincial ones. The unique nature of Hong Kong and Macao's political situation means that terms may seem a little strange at times but the proposal more accurately reflects the nature of the crossings, i.e., ones between Hong Kong and the rest of China. —  AjaxSmack  16:37, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. This page was relocated from Template:China-Hong Kong border crossings to Template:Guangdong-Hong Kong border crossings with no discussion. 119.236.251.39 (talk) 00:33, 13 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

It was proposed in this section that Template:China–Hong Kong border crossings be renamed and moved to Template:Customs and Immigration Control Points of Hong Kong. result: Not moved per consensus seen below. Thanks and kudos to editors for your input; everyone stay healthy! P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 00:36, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply] Move logs: source title · target title This is template {{subst:Requested move/end}}

Template:China–Hong Kong border crossings → Template:Customs and Immigration Control Points of Hong Kong – Current naming convention is both non-sensical and sub-optimal, its existence is a testament to systemic bias on Wikipedia that caters to a small group of vocal users. Allow me to present my reasoning as follows for the change. (1) HK is recognized as a constituent part of not just China but the PRC. (2) Updated name follows the official conventions of the Hong Kong immigration department's English language website and the editorial standards of Hong Kong's English language newspaper of record the South China Morning Post. (3) The renamed template should be straightforward and neutral to all parties. It is possible to achieve this simplistically by avoiding the term "China" altogether; this template is, after all, Hong Kong-centric, not China-centric, not about borders of China proper, hence I don't think many would object to "China" not appearing in title at all (also this neutrally deals with Macau-HK control points). (4) Inability to translate in congruent fashion to and from Chinese - the corresponding Chinese article is titled Hong Kong-Neidi Crossings. (5) Many (perhaps half) of the "border crossings" listed on this template are in fact not border crossings at all - they are instead simply extra-territorial custom control points that are domiciled entirely in the "other"'s territory. (6) My proposed name should be stable for the long term - regardless of Hong Kong's political situation, level of autonomy, or beliefs of Chinese and Hong Kong editors.
By the way, the proposal for the left-heading "China" would in this case be simply changed to "Entry" and "Hong Kong" would be replaced by "Exit". Alternative naming of this template can be "Entry and Exit Control Points of Hong Kong. Regardless of which title we pick, it is better than the current title, which is neither neutral nor stable. Colipon+(Talk) 21:23, 15 January 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. — Mdaniels5757 (talk • contribs) 21:54, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I have updated the request to show that this wasn't intended as a cross-namespace move. Note as well that there is also already a separate template called Template:Immigration Control Stations in Hong Kong. And of course consensus itself can change, but it's unclear what may have changed since the RfC shown above. Dekimasuよ! 06:40, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Template:Immigration Control Stations in Hong Kong would be made redundant by this renaming (it already is anyhow) and can be deprecated. Also neither previous move nor RfC had any sound proposals and in any case no true "consensus" was achieved - many users opposed the results, their arguments were simply ignored. I read those discussions and came up with what I thought to be a sensible solution that could satisfy all parties. Colipon+(Talk) 14:46, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Attempting solicitation for opinions for anyone watching this page or anyone wanting to make their opinions heard. If I do not hear back I presume I can go ahead and be bold and execute the move. Colipon+(Talk) 01:55, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • Since there is a previous move request, it would be best to allow a closer to evaluate the discussion, or to relist it if necessary. Dekimasuよ! 17:44, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        • That's fair - I will say though that my request should not be in any way be conflated with the previous ones in that it's a very deliberate, different, and moderate compromise solution that is politically neutral and avoids all the pitfalls of previous proposals. So it should be treated as an entirely separate proposal discussed on its own merits. Colipon+(Talk) 02:31, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• What you proposed certainly isn't "politically neutral" and "avoid[ing] all the pitfalls of the previous proposals". (Btw are you a reincarnation or meatpuppet of the legendary Instantnoodles? Arguing the use of "Mainland" in place of the much simpler and clearer word "China".) 203.95.212.95 (talk) 11:16, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• If I do not hear back I presume I can go ahead... Apparent Chinese way of working with others. This is not collaboration in a civilised sense. 203.95.212.95 (talk) 11:16, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• You apparently haven't compared the two navboxes carefully. 203.95.212.95 (talk) 11:16, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Hong Kong has been notified of this discussion. — Mdaniels5757 (talk • contribs) 14:50, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Strongest possible oppose. All arguments have been presented above (#Requested move, #Template title (RFC) if you bothered to read. As you said on ‌‎your own user page that Taiwan is often a common name and shorthand of the RoC, China depending on contexts is a common name and shorthand of Mainland China or the PRC. This template deals only with crossings between China and Hong Kong. The current title is the simplest, neatest and most unambiguous. (You may have thought that the Macau Ferry Terminal is only a crossing to Macau but that terminal also serves ferries to a handful of Chinese piers.) 61.15.254.31 (talk) 09:18, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Only Shekou and Jiuzhou? And perhaps Xiangzhou? "[A] handful"?

• Right. 61.15.254.31 (talk) 08:38, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per above. In addition to what others had said please bear in mind that this is the English version of Wikipedia and customary usages of the terms in question in the English language shall generally be followed. Don't let the other language or other languages corrupt your thought, let alone patriotist or irredentist rhetorics. 203.95.212.95 (talk) 11:16, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. The proposed name is vaguer and different in scope. If you want to add "mainland" to the current title, e.g. Template:Hong Kong–mainland China border crossings, to allay some insecurities, fine by me. —  AjaxSmack  04:34, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Thoughts: two IP users threw some personal attacks my way, accusing me of being a sock; another established user insinuated I needed to allay some "insecurities". No one addressed substantive arguments around this infobox consisting of not "border crossings" at all but merely customs entry points located in the "other's" territory, among many others. I mean if this is the level of toxicity involved in a good-faith attempt to remedy a sub-optimal naming convention, I don't know what else I can say here. Colipon+(Talk) 17:32, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for calling me on the "insecurities"; that doesn't convey what I meant. I'm sorry. Please keep up your good work. —  AjaxSmack  17:43, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Thanks. "Hong Kong-mainland China Border Crossings" was proposed in some of the earlier discussions but rejected as not sufficiently concise. Hence I did not suggest it again. For what it's worth this is what Hong Kong's very own authoritative English-language newspaper calls it. But it doesn't quite solve the problem of the extra-territorial custom control points which make up roughly half of the articles on this template box. Colipon+(Talk) 19:17, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• You don't rely only on the SCMP. Read newspapers and sources published elsewhere too. And no there's no extraterritorial customs control point on the list. None. 61.15.254.31 (talk) 08:38, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Do any customs authorities other than Hong Kong's have any operation at these places? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:43, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  On the Hong Kong Zhuhai Macau Bridge there's customs checkpoints for all three entities but they are not co-located. My understanding is that the bridge itself is basically neutral territory while each jurisdiction maintains some sort of "gate" at the ends of the bridge to control entry. Not sure if Exit is controlled at all. Colipon+(Talk) 19:01, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Does it make sense to view all the border crossing locations through the lens of one of the relevant customs authorities? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:51, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  It is impractical and undesirable to have a template that contains all the customs control points of China proper - there are hundreds of those and there is no value to having a navigational template of that sort. Also reading through the list, a lot of the "water" ports actually link only to the articles about the cities themselves and not to articles about the control points per se, meaning this template would not even be placeable on some of the articles it links to. Additionally the "water" checkpoints are most definitely not "border crossings" in any real sense. We would be better served to have that truncated to a single list. Colipon+(Talk) 22:14, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• there are hundreds of those There aren't really that many and that's way beyond the scope of this box. 61.15.254.31 (talk) 08:38, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• ...through the lens of one of the relevant customs authorities? Exactly. You caught the point Firefangledfeathers. Colipon is pushing a Sinocentric point of view and the agenda of Beijing. 61.15.254.31 (talk) 08:38, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• My understanding is that the bridge itself is basically neutral territory ... You are simply wrong. There is no neutral territory. The border between Hong Kong and China over the waters has always been clearly demarcated. It cuts through the bridge. The border between Macau and China has also been demarcated before the bridge was opened. There was a case that a Hong Kong men was arrested by the Chinese authorities on his way from Hong Kong to Macau in the middle of the bridge. Of course exit is controlled. Not sure if Exit is controlled at all. It would be unimaginable for a jurisdiction like China not to do so. 61.15.254.31 (talk) 08:38, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Do any customs authorities other than... Those listed under China are operated by the immigration and customs authorities of China. Those listed under Hong Kong are operated by Hong Kong. 61.15.254.31 (talk) 08:38, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• ...they are instead simply extra-territorial custom control points that are domiciled entirely in the "other"'s territory. None of them is extraterritorial. 61.15.254.31 (talk) 08:38, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • If this is the quality of discussion and engagement, then to the admin presiding over this: just close the poll as "no consensus" and move on. I'll point back to this as an example of the absurd level of systemic bias now present now on WP with most of the veteran editors who have knowledge on these issues now disengaged, and IP users hurling wild insinuations can just stonewall good-faith move requests without addressing any of the substantive arguments raised. Only on Wikipedia are there a cabal of users that enforce their preferred naming conventions for British royalty (cf "Princess Diana" must be titled "Diana, Princess of Wales"), but a silly name like "China-Hong Kong border crossing" used by literally zero official Hong Kong English-language sources stands by default. Just laughable. Colipon+(Talk) 20:26, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]