Template talk:Census metropolitan areas in Canada by size

Canada Template‑class

This template is within the scope of WikiProject Canada, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Canada on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CanadaWikipedia:WikiProject CanadaTemplate:WikiProject CanadaCanada-related articles Template This template does not require a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.

This template (Template:Census metropolitan areas by size) was considered for deletion on 2009 April 22. The result of the discussion was "no consensus".

Greater Toronto Area vs Toronto CMA

From [the Census metropolitan area article before its incorporation in Census geographic units of Canada]:

"All CMAs are subdivided into census tracts. A CMA may be consolidated with adjacent Census Agglomerations if they are socially and economically integrated. This new grouping is known as a consolidated CMA, and the component CMA and CAs are known as the primary census metropolitan area (PCMA) and primary census agglomeration(s) (PCA). A CMA may not be consolidated with another CMA."

"A CMA may not be considated with another CMA according to what?" What is the Oshawa CMA and part of the Hamilton CMA doing in the Greater Toronto Area (Ontario government administration area)? A qualifier is needed, such as, whatever Statistics Canada has to say about it, with a citation.

Too bad that there is no link for the Toronto CMA but it most certainly is not the Greater Toronto Area. And what documentation from Statistics Canada states anything about census tracts other than around census agglomerations that end up with 50,000 or more people in them? Show everyone the census tracts (and explain them, or provide citation that explains them) inside CMAs or even CAs with 50,000+ in "agglomerated" population. Note also that the Labrador "City" CA didn't have the requisite 10,000 between the CSDs making up the CA of Labrador "City", both of type T = Town, Labrador City (Town), Wabush (Town). CMAs, for no apparent reason, don't lose their "status" as such when, not if they do lose the requisite 100,000 in whatever alleged relationships, which is going to happen to the Thunder Bay and Greater Sudbury CMAs fairly soon if they keep losing the population they have been over the last couple of censuses, but not CAs.

Statistics Canada states nothing about CAs not losing their "status" when they lose the required 10,000 in alleged economic and cultural integration and Labrador Town, Wabush Town, don't have 10,000 in total population, period. Another StatsCon job.

The GTA is made up of Census Divisions (counties of whatever name, according to provincial legislation and unorganized nothings, type UNO): Toronto Division (nothing it in but the Toronto CSD), Peel, York, Durham and Halton Regional Municipalities make up the GTA. Everything federal, as usual, makes absolutely no sense around Toronto and its Toronto CMA thing is completely ignored, other than when there are no other stats to use around whatever, due to the Ontario feds not doing their jobs around Toronto as usual.

Greater Toronto Area vs. Toronto [census] metropolitan area, 2001

After each census subdivision (CSD) / municipality name the census division (CD) name is abbreviated as follows:

TD = Toronto Division
PR = Peel Regional Municipality
YR = York Regional Municipality
DR = Durham Regional Municipality
HR = Halton Regional Municipality
SC = Simcoe County
DC = Dufferin County

___________________________________________________________________
                                                 Population
Name                               Type   2001      1996     Change
___________________________________________________________________
Toronto (TD)                         C 2,481,494 2,385,421 A 96,073
Mississauga (PR)                     C   612,925   544,382   68,543
Brampton (PR)                        C   325,428   268,251   57,177
Markham (YR)                         T   208,615   173,383   35,232
Vaughan (YR)                         C   182,022   132,549   49,473
Burlington (HR) * .................. C   150,836   136,976   13,860
Oakville (HR)                        T   144,738   128,405   16,333
Oshawa (DR) * ...................... C   139,051   134,364    4,687
Richmond Hill (YR)                   T   132,030   101,725   30,305
Barrie-unofficial or otherwise (SC)  C   103,710    79,191   24,519
Whitby (DR) * ...................... T    87,413    73,794   13,619
Pickering (DR)                       C    87,139    78,989    8,150
Ajax (DR)                            T    73,753    64,430    9,323
Clarington (DR) * .................. T    69,834    60,615    9,219
Newmarket (YR)                       T    65,788    57,125    8,663
Caledon (PR)                         T    50,595    39,893   10,702
Halton Hills (HR)                    T    48,184    42,390    5,794
Aurora (YR)                          T    40,167    34,857    5,310
Georgina (YR)                        T    39,263    34,777    4,486
Milton (HR)                          T    31,471    32,104     -633
Whitchurch-Stouffville (YR)          T    22,008    19,835    2,173
[New Tecumseth] (SC) **              T    26,141    22,904    3,237
[Orangeville] (DC) **                T    25,248    21,498    3,750
[Bradford West Gwillimbury] (SC) **  T    22,228    20,213    2,015
[Whitchurch-Stouffville] (YR) **     T    22,008    19,835    2,173
East Gwillimbury (YR)                T    20,555    19,770      785
Scugog (DR) * ...................... TP   20,173     7,244    1,336
King (YR)                            TP   18,533    18,223      310
Uxbridge (DR)                        TP   17,377    15,882    1,495
Brock (DR) * ....................... TP   12,110    11,705      405
[Mono] (DC) **                       T     6,922     6,552      370
Chippewas of Georgina Island
 First Nation (YR)                   R       273       201       72
[Mississaugas of
 Scugog Isand] (DR) * .............. R        51         ¶        ¶
________________________________________________________________________

¶ Incompletely enumerated Indian reserve or Indian settlement. For further information, see the “Special Notes”.

* ... Municipalities/CSDs with one asterisk and a line of periods are in the version of the Toronto city-region the Ontario feds created but are not in the confederate "[census] metropolitan area" ([C]MA) version.

[]** Municipalities in brackets followed by two asterisks are not in the "Greater Toronto Area" the Ontario feds created but are in the confederate version of the Toronto city-region ([C]MA).

Derived from: Statistics Canada - Population, Dwellings and Geography (Index), Census Subdivisions (CSDs) - Municipalities then by CMA and CD (Toronto Division, Peel, York, Durham and Halton Regional Municipalities) to get both alleged “official Toronto city-regions”.

Date modified (by source): 2002-07-16
Last updated/checked: 2005-02-18
_____

Census Subdivisions (Municipalities) not included in the Toronto CMA but included in the GTA

___________________________________________________________________
                                                 Population
Name                               Type   2001      1996     Change
___________________________________________________________________
Burlington (HR) .................... C   150,836   136,976   13,860
Oshawa (DR) ........................ C   139,051   134,364    4,687
Barrie-unofficial or otherwise (SC)  C   103,710    79,191   24,519
Whitby (DR) ........................ T    87,413    73,794   13,619
Clarington (DR) .................... T    69,834    60,615    9,219
Scugog (DR) ........................ TP   20,173     7,244    1,336
Brock (DR) ......................... TP   12,110    11,705      405
Mississaugas of
 Scugog Isand] (DR) ................ R        51         ¶        ¶
___________________________________________________________________
TOTAL                                    583,178   503,889   79,289
___________________________________________________________________

Barrie has a 400-series highway (the 400) running right to/from it at the 401 through Toronto, the 401 at the 400 is jammed pretty much all the time and it gets even worse on the weekends in the summers, because we don't know any "city folk" who have or ever will just hang around in Toronto all the time. If you can't get out of the province or country on a weekend, at least get up north to a cottage, campground, little provincial park, and usually via the 400, which runs right to Barrie, which, due to the amount of commuting involved on weekdays,should either be its own CMA given that it had over the 100,000 requisite population in 2001 and cannot possibly not be socially and economically integrated with itself (but it's still a CA because Abbotsford, BC became a CMA in the 2001 Census and so did Kingston, ON and how "fair" would it be to obey LAWS and regulations by adding two CMAs to south Ontario and only 1 to the Lower Mainland?), or become part of the Toronto CMA. But it's going to be part of the Toronto CMA anyway, so there's really no point in turning it into its own CMA then just adding it to the Toronto CMA.

Census Subdivisions (Municipalities) added to the Toronto MA (in exchange for the above) but not included in the GTA

___________________________________________________________________
                                                 Population
Name                               Type   2001      1996     Change
___________________________________________________________________
New Tecumseth (SC) ................. T    26,141    22,904 A  3,237
Orangeville (DC) ................... T    25,248    21,498    3,750
Bradford West Gwillimbury (SC) ..... T    22,228    20,213    2,015
Mono (DC) .......................... T     6,922     6,552      370
___________________________________________________________________
TOTAL                                     80,539    71,167    9,372
___________________________________________________________________

Not Barrie, when if anything at all in Simcoe County is going to be part of the Toronto CMA, it's Barrie, not puny little New Tecumseth or or Bradford West Gwillumbury, or little Orangeville or whatever a Mono is from Dufferin County.

Burlington is allegedly part of the Hamilton CMA but is part of the GTA because we don't pay any attention to the confederates here, other than around the money they're constantly stealing from us to hand out to everyone else. Oshawa is a CMA but is part of the Greater Toronto Area, so either get a proper Toronto CMA article set up or drop the double brackets around it -- because no one can possibly refer to the GTA as any confederate CMA.

It is an outright lie, let alone misleading, and lies do not belong in any encyclopedia.

Oops. I forgot to propose a solution. Why not just get rid of the "Common/Corporate Name" column given that every CMA is called exactly what it's called by Statistics Canada according to this. And then get the links for every CMA from Census, "Show me data on the community I live in" and select the CMA links after entering Toronto, Montreal, etc., a bunch of CMA stats for each CMA? --S-Ranger 01:36, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The first flaw in your reasoning here is the notion that CMA inclusion can jump gaps; Barrie couldn't be part of the Toronto CMA if Bradford and New Tecumseth and Mono weren't, too — for Barrie and Toronto to be part of a single CMA, the definition of CMA would therefore require that everything directly between Toronto and Barrie were part of it too. Bearcat 02:49, 6 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Proposition #1

List of CMAs

• All CMA external sources, Statistics Canada, 2001 Census by CMA name, All Data
  
• National ranking via Statistics Canada, Population Counts, Land Area, Population Density and Population Rank, for Census Metropolitan Areas and Census Agglomerations, 2001 Census

_____

The thing is that most editors publishing stats on Wikipedia Canada for CMAs, CDs, CAs, CSDs, don't even know that these data exist (and often don't know what CMA, CD, CA, CSD even mean); or they are making very broad (completely worthless) interpretations, from nothing that any interpretation is needed for.

The same tables/templates (with different data) can be brought up for any CD ("county" by whatever name), CSD (municipality by whatever or no type) or CA (bizarre "town-regions" out in the middle of Nowhere in many cases, but not in south Ontario).

I managed to locate the missing CMA links (to StatsCan data for each CMA as with all of them) and also corrected the ranking and removed whatever Saguenay, Quebec is, because it's not a CMA or a CA. The ranking may not "make sense" to the oblivious but with the source for it, the second reference/link above, it's a no-brainer to look at the national population ranks (2001) and there are census agglomerations CAs with higher populations, so with higher national ranks than CMAs, which is why it skips from 22 to 25. Just click on the source (second cited below the table) and you'll see for yourself. --S-Ranger 06:15, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

When I first say the template, I found it odd that most abbreviations for provinces were single letters. I am changing them to Canada Post's standard abbreviations, as these are better known and, in my opinion, provide more consistency. Feel free to add your comments/concerns below. -- Mr Minchin 23:23, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks, Mr Michin; I agree. Best wishes, David Kernow (talk) 03:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any good reason to have a template about this? With all these templates popping up, I could imagine that Toronto would have like 30 templates at one point. I am not nominating this for deletion but I would strongly recommend that you reconsider this template entirely. It really seems kind of pointless. --68.54.101.229 05:19, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, it would probably be better to merge it into the city's province's subdivisions template. Add a section for CMAs. Many centres, like Thunder Bay, don't actually have articles for their CMAs and the link just reverts to the city profile. Vidioman 01:05, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've proposed merging this into Census geographic units of Canada at the Canadian noticeboard. –Pomte 04:46, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would note that the last few updates which involved changing the order of cities in this template have been sourced to a StatsCan chart of population estimates. Please note that Wikipedia has to stick to verified census data figures; the cities here need to stay in their 2001 rank order until the actual 2006 census data is released. No citing of unofficial population estimates as gospel, please. Bearcat 02:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The items in the list seem to be ordered by population, not by size (size implies area, i.e. square kilometers, doesn't it?). So is the template name )and title) wrong? Beside having extremely little use as a template, I mean. --Qyd (talk) 19:55, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We have two templates doing the same exact thing. One has some pretty pictures but has some issues with naming, the other is more acurate but lacks numbers or ranking. --Kevlar (talk • contribs) 23:29, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]