Talk:Yoruichi Shihōin

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Well, I was bored, and wrote another article. Please don't move it to Shihōin Yoruichi because I'm pretty sure the U in the name is pronounced clearly. Although maybe a redirect would do. Also, if anyone can verify all the data on this page and re-word some of the sentences that sound unprofessional, it would be greatly appreciated (although I'm pretty sure all the data is correct). -- Ynhockey 09:14, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Bleh, since when was this page moved to Shihōin... gotta hate ppl ignoring the discussion. Listen to the name :P it's shi-ho-u-in, clearly said. Like in tou (to ask). Unfortunately I didn't notice when it was moved :( might've been weeks ago. -- Ynhockey 09:07, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

I see your point but the article should be how her name is spelled not pronounced.--Greedisland14 17:19, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I just want to be VERY CLEAR, because there are some people that are VERY STUBBORN about this. There are THREE DIVISIONS in Soul Society - Gotei 13, Covert Ops Brigade, and Demon Arts Brigade. Yoruichi was NEVER IN THE GOTEI 13. She was the leader of the COVERT OPS BRIGADE which is NOT IN THE GOTEI 13, meaning that Yoruichi was NEVER A CAPTAIN. I'm using lots of caps here because some people just don't understand. - Hobbeslover 18:23, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Hobbes,

To quote you: She was the leader of the COVERT OPS BRIGADE. That DOES mean she was a Captain (at least), just not one of the captains of the court squadrons. In fact, if (and I don't know this), if rank is commensurate to that of the captain/commander in charge of all of the Gotei 13, she's like a colonel (to use modern ranks).--Mitsukai 19:07, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

I think it says somewhere that she was the general (shougun) of the covert ops. That would mean she was captain of the 2nd division, which is, from what we know, the covert ops division. Also, the word taicho means 'commander' (sort of), not necessarily captain. So presumably it could also mean general. -- Ynhockey 20:46, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Quote for me EXACTLY in the manga where it says that the leader of the other two divisions are called "captain". Also, the 2nd division is not synonymous to the covert ops division. Please provide proof with exact quotes, chapters, and page numbers. -- Hobbeslover 02:28, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Both ch. 157 p.7 and ch. 159 p.15 clearly state that Yoruichi was general of the covert ops, which as you yourself said is also an army on its own and therefore has its own divisions, which means they each have leaders ranked the same as the ones in Gotei 13. No, it's not the same as the 2nd division of Gotei 13, that was my mistake. However, nobody is ranked/called captain anywhere. Captain is just a translation that VIZ (I think) came up with (and it's in fact wrong, since 'captains' in Gotei 13 are at least senior officers). The Japanese version says simply 'taicho' (meaning commander), which is synonimous to the word 'osa', which is one of Yoruichi's titles (ch. 159 p. 7). If we were to compare to real ranks (and yes it's comparable, Mitsukai was quite correct to compare in the Rukia discussion page), then Yoruichi would be lieut.gen. and a regular 'captain' would actually be a brig.gen. Simiraly, I guess the fuku-taichos would be colonels or lieut.cols. -- Ynhockey 18:25, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Didnt simply soifon get joruichi's place as commander and captain when joruichi left soul society? I believe thats the case. They talk alot about it in the soul society arch? and even soifon draws ut special forces when they fight. someone could check the anime and read the manga for more correct info. But if thats the case its most likely that joruichi would have been a captain of gotei 13 since soifon is the current captain. look at the page below, it talks about the three divisions the demon arts corps, the special forces and gotei 13. But look at the pictures its the same person soi fon commands as noted before. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotei_13#Special_forces

anonomous unregistered user

What? Jirachi? Who are you even talking about? As best we can conclusively tell, Soifon not only replaced Yoruichi's role, but also took on a Gotei 13 rank. --tjstrf talk 01:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah thats what im trying to conclude, that soifon did take joruichis place as she left society. It was the talk about joruichi ever being a captain of gotei 13. Wich i think is the case because Soifon is captain and leader of special forces.

I think Soifon "dual-trained" as a shinigami and a special force ninja(?) or it was later decided to merge the Second Division with the Special Forces. Either way, we won't know definitely until it is explicitly said in the manga. Gdo01 02:44, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I Of episode 56 soifon says "the special forces and the police are under my command now...you had your era (talking to joruichi) soinfon is both commander of the special forces and police and a gotei 13 captain. As someone said earlier that Soifon did simply take over the rank of joruichi as she left. Its pretty good evidence that Joruichi was a former captain

I really don't think this can be settled unless you just ask Tite Kubo himself. No one knows for certain who the captain of the 2nd division was before Soifon, so, since Soifon appears to have taken over for Yoruichi, there is a possibility that Yoruichi was the 2nd division captain before Soifon. Temari of Suna 19:48, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I think we should have it mentioned under something like "..and possible former captain of the 2nd division". It really isnt out of nowhere, Soifon took her position after she left, right? 2nd division captain and leader of the special forces could go hand-in-hand, like the 1st division and leader of the gotei 13.--24.56.197.128 20:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I do think that this is also true. Just like one division is a medical unit (seeing that most of their time and effort is spent on that + support) and they have a captain, there's nothing wrong with her being a captain and commander of second division. Also I believe that nobody can argue that Soifon is her successor and she is in gotei 13.

Oh boy. This week's chapter revealing Yoruichi as the previous captain of squad 2 takes this flame war way beyond the boundaries of silly, and well into "only on Wikipedia" territory. 130.234.5.137 (talk) 11:05, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Should it be mentioned in the article that Yoruichi tends to speak in a very unusual manner for a female character? Specifically, the way she talks in the Japanese version makes her sound like an old man, and in fact she teases Ichigo about this when she first reveals her human form to him, asking if he thought she was a man from the way she talks. As far as I've seen, female characters using that sort of speach is extremely unusual in manga/anime, so it might be worth noting as one of her character traits... --ACDragonMaster 08:23, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't want to be the obnoxious wikipedian who self righteously deletes other peoples contributions. But I feel this section is useless and whatever in it should be in the synopsis. because there should be some symmetry between articles. Either all characters should have notable battles section or none should have it at all. Noman953

During the last episode of the filler arc, Yoruichi stopped Byakuya from interfering in Kariya and Ichigo's fight, saying(quoted from DB subbers) "Should he release Joukaishou, you and I will need to conaitn it using Shunkou and Senbonsakura."

Is that name of some kind of shinigami/supernatural power/item/whathaveyou or is that the name of her Zanpakuto?--Chicbicyclist 12:50, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Nevermind, found it. It's one of her techniques after all.--Chicbicyclist 12:58, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

"It's Flash Cry. She uses it against Soi-Fon. Kalga-han

That wasn't her zanpakuto. It was just one of her abilities. // DecaimientoPoético 00:51, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

There is no proof what-so-ever that Yoruichi has a zanpaktou. The sword you see at several locations/times in the manga and anime might as well be as valuable as her kunai-knives. If she has not said it's name, it is not a zanpaktou. Maybe her soul-power manifested in kidou and shunpo skills, who knows? It is though certain that there is no proof to back up the fact that she has a zanpaktou, so I question this whole segment in this article. So you have seen some pictures where she uses a sword, how do you know it is her zanpaktou, and not just as ordinary as one of Ganju's swords?

Ganju's sword is a Zanpaktou. He is just not a shinigami. And there is a picture in the article with her Zanpaktou. Kalga-han

Shinigami have zanpakutō, and only zanpakutō can purify hollows. Put two and two together. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 23:31, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

In the OVA,The Seal Sword Frenzy,Yoruichi uses her zanpakuto to kill a hollow. Futhermore in episode 57, Soi Fon has a flashback where Yoruichi uses her zanpakuto to purify the hollow. Just because she doesn't say the name of her sword doesn't necessary mean her sword isn't a zanpakuto. Look at Iba,the fukutaicho from 7th division. He released his zanpakuto but we don't know the name. Clearly,Yoruichi's sword is a zanpakuto.-Hanaichi 05:35, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

If you have even seen the OVA "The Sealed Sword Frenzy", then you would have noticed that the "sword" she uses to kill that hollow differs from the pictures in the manga in form and length. ...Speaking of the OVA, their main enemy, Banshin, is said to have "fused" with his zanpaktou, so that he would not go to Soul Society when he died. This only emphasizes the fact that there are ways for a shinigami to manifest the power of their zanpaktou in other ways then just using it as a materialistic sword. (Banshin was a shinigami, and the "fusion" with his zanpaktou made him stronger, but on the cost of not having a sword he could release - he released "himself" to gain further power, which would indicate that he had lost the ability to commune with his zanpaktou) Ganju's sword is not a zanpaktou. Go buy the data-book released by Kubo Tite.

OVA = non-canon. Not sure what you're getting at with Ganju, but he's essentially a shinigami by race (as in soul type) but not occupation (hates the Gotei 13). --tjstrf talk 02:37, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "non-cannon", but if you're questioning the OVA's credibility, then you can see here that Tite Kubo is set as "staff" in it, meaning he is it's original creator, as you can see to the left of it in the list. The Bleach OVAs are to be taken seriously, in the one previous from the one mentioned, Tite even voice-acted as Kon for two lines.

Being by the original author, or more likely containing character designs/ideas from the original author, doesn't make it canon if it contradicts the manga. At best it makes it alternate universe pseudo-canon like that one Love Hina novel. Given the fact that nothing in the OVA fit the timeline of the manga, and that shinigami have never been shown with ressurecion-type releases, and the downright oversights like normal humans hearing shinigami conversations and Renji shooting at a spiritual being with a RIFLE, it's pretty clearly not canon with the manga. --tjstrf talk 04:38, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Fine. If the OVA is not "canon" with the manga, then remove that bit of the article in the "Zanpaktou" segment, since you clearly do not think it is credible. Then the only "evidence" left on there of her zanpaktou is 1 flashback that Soi Fong had. Hanaichi, you mention this flashback in the anime, but if you have read the manga, then you'd have seen that they do not show Yoruichi actually killing a hollow with her zanpaktou, they do not show her zanpaktou at all. There is one picture where you see Soi Fong and Yoruichi "shunpo-ing" together, but it only shows Soi Fong bearing her own zanpaktou, not Yoruichi's. I would suggest that you all read/re-read/look at the pictures on chapter 159.

The appearance merits inclusion, but only if we qualify it by saying it's from the OVA rather than the manga. I'm not understanding what you're arguing here anyway. If you're saying she doesn't, having a zanpakuto happens to be the defining trait of being a shinigami, and Yoruichi is a shinigami, so Yoruichi obviously has one. If you're trying to promote the OVA as canon, then think what you like, it still won't be. --tjstrf talk 09:25, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

But in the OVA, her "Zanpaktou's" appearance differs from the appearance in the anime, like I have stated earlier. It has not been shown in the manga, and you can't say that she has to have a zanpaktou just because she is a shinigami, because there are other ways for a shinigami to manifest their spirit power then just having a zanpaktou, like I've also stated earlier. And if you can't prove that she has manifest her power in a zanpaktou, then I suggest that you re-write the article.

You can't tell from that one scene that the zanpakuto is different, especially at the distance and angle at which she uses it. All shinigami can manifest their power in a zanpakuto. There's basically no exception to this. Even if they can't learn it's name and are in every way incompetent, they can still use the "shallow forging" version that Zangetsu gives to Ichigo in the episode where he fights his inner hollow for the first time. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 20:49, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Give me a quotation from the manga or Tite Kubo or any official Bleach interview/release where somebody explicitly states the fact that all shinigami can manifest their power in a zanpaktou with basically no exception. No, wait, give me a quotation where it is said that Yoruichi has a zanpaktou. You can't, and I can't quote anybody on the fact that she hasn't; ergo is it not an actual fact that Yoruichi has a zanpaktou, and thats why I've been nagging about this. And also; yes, you can actually tell that the zanpaktou is different if you actually click "pause" during the scene when she kills a hollow with it. In the OVA, the "blade" goes to the end of the handle, but from your picture on the article, there is a "hand-stopper".

Name one shinigami that does not have a zanpakuto. Name one shinigami who has carried a sword (not those sticks the execution guards used) that wasn't a zanpakuto. (See, I can do stupid one-answer questions too.) All shinigami have zanpakuto. To assume anything else is original research, because we have never seen a single shinigami who has explicitly stated that they have no zanpakuto. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 23:24, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey "Someguy". Try reading my whole post. I said: Since you can't say she has one AND you have no evidence since it is not shown in the manga; and I can't say she does not have one, it is not an actual fact and it does not belong in a wikipedia article. Who has explicitly stated that all shinigami has to have one? I won't repeat myself just because you're not seeing the point.

Shinigami powers are manifested in the soul by the existence of a zanpakuto spirit. Having a zanpakuto spirit means you have a zanpakuto, even if you don't ever carry the thing. If you refuse to see this simple fact then you're just being deliberately dense and this is a pointless argument. --tjstrf talk 06:26, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

(Moving to the left)Anyway I think you have missed the point made by Kalga-han. Yoruichi clearly has a zanpakuto in the image where she and Kisuke was training in the Sokyoku training space. Look clearly in the manga. She has a sword. And in any case, it was also said that the shinigami school founded by the 1st division captain trained people to be future shinigami, kido users or members of the special forces, which Yoruichi happens to be the ex-commander.--Hanaichi 13:21, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

You're all missing a point here. For anyone to become a captian of any squad they'd need to perform bankai of their sword which would be the clearest indication ever she does indeed have one. Perhaps Kubo wanted it to be known that shinigami can fuse with a zanpakuto but couldn't do it in the anime so made the Sealed Sword Frenzy.--Licourtrix (talk) 08:51, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Even if there's not much to say, maybe her appearence to save Ichigo, her "battle" with Yammy and her broken arm are worth mentioning. Lord Air 04:17, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I have restored the old image of Yoruichi for the top of the page, on the base of higher quality and lighting. Please raise any objections here. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 11:43, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Ah. Thank goodness. Cheers for clarity. =] Sephiroth BCR 01:15, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Theres a statement that Yoruichi's shunko technique that I'm not sure of which I found.It is under Abilities and Items.The statement is"Her flash cry abilities are strong enough to hurt or severly damage Ichigo Kurosaki."When did she use it on Ichigo???--Hanaichi 14:10, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

So, why don't we know why she is referred to as "Mr. Yoruichi"? Viz says it's because of the way she sounds, and fanlation says it's because of the way she talks. Her voice seems to be the root of it. ~SnapperTo 22:31, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

This is why dubbing gets into trouble. These early episodes have a lot of gender confusion, which is much easier to deal with in a language with few gender-specific pronouns. Her being mistaken for a man is already mentioned, so the "Mr." thing is a formality. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 23:02, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

So it is. Perhaps I should have read all of the cat paragraph before assuming the gender confusion went unmentioned. Apologies. ~SnapperTo 23:21, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Eh, I would like to know where Urahara said "Mr. Yoruichi", though. That seems a printworthy mistake. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 23:30, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Viz's chapter 51 (and maybe others, but I can't think of other times they've been together). Urahara seems weird enough for that to be intentionally wrong. ~SnapperTo 00:45, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Well he probboly said "Mr.Yoruichi" beacuse if he revealed the fact that Yoruichi is a girl that would ruin some of the manga.Ultimaterasengan 23:05, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

You do know they don't realize they're in a manga or anime series, don't you? He knew Yoruichi's a girl, but strangely enough called her 'mister' anyway. // DecaimientoPoético 16:08, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm talking about Kubo-sensei, he worte the manga, so if he didn't want Kisuke to say Mrs. Yoruichi then why do you care?Ultimaterasengan 18:36, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd guess it's cause Japanese doesn't have as many gender specific terms as English. The prefix san is used for men and women, and can be translated as Mr. or Mrs., so it was a non-issue in the native version. When translated, they chose to use Mr. to retain the supprise of her real gender. Sure it makes Urahara's addressing her as Mr. in the english version a bit odd, but it was either make Urahara look strange or tell that she was a female as soon as the cat shows up. Now, I haven't seen or read the Japanses versions, but I'm certain this is the case.

That is exactly the case; she is called Yoruichi-san in Japanese. However, I still find Urahara calling her Mr. Yoruichi to be perfectly ordinary given his odd personality. ~SnapperTo 20:32, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

That is my piont! thanks for getting it across! Ultimaterasengan 18:04, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

i know hat either a arrancer or a vizard called her that but is she

No. She's Indian or possibly Southern Thai. --tjstrf talk 04:47, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry but are the people from Thailand Jappenese?Ultimaterasengan 23:06, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

No, they're Thai. Why do you ask? --tjstrf talk 23:08, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

you said that she might be thai but isn't she jappenese?Ultimaterasengan 15:44, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

We have Hispanics in America, Blacks in England. I'm sure there can be Thai in Japan. // DecaimientoPoético 16:05, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

YES she is black. I don't understand why Americans find it so hard to picture a black anime character being in the lead role. Considering Bleach has a few black male characters is it impossible that they also put a girl in there also? Also if they call the Arrancar calls her black then she is black. I don't see why that's so hard for Americans to accept --Yellowfiver 00:24, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Yellowfiver, have you ever seen a Black person?

Assuming yes, have you ever seen an Indian? How about other Southern and Southeastern Asians, like the Thai, or Indonesians, or any of the other dozen-odd nationalities whose darker toned individuals have Yoruichi's skin colour?

Because if you've seen both, the answer of which Yoruichi more strongly resembles is as plain to see as the nose on your face. Or perhaps more fittingly, as plain to see as the colour of your skin.

But hey, if you want to ignore the evidence and ignorantly throw around thinly veiled accusations of racism instead, be my guest. --tjstrf talk 01:21, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I was hoping you'd say that. Have ever seen a real live Japanese person? Anime characters are not typically drawn with exceptionally accurate attention to true racial characteristics. Actually let's not get into the whole representation of race in anime because its a complicated subject that deals with self-image, export and marketing to Western consumers, and many other issues. As far as her skin color, I doubt there's much significance between in the variations of brown. In fact, I actually thought she was Indian prior to watching episode 116, 5:25-30. I really don't know what other proof is necessary besides someone calling her black. Maybe you need another character to call her a Negro or African before you accept it (not so subtle accusation).

Maybe you know better than I and that the Detabayo translation is incorrect. But no matter, if you believe the arrancar's statement was in equivocal Japanese then we may not be able to settle this. In the meantime, one of my good friends is Japanese, but in Japan right now for break I'll ask them whether there is something more to the seemingly ambiguous term "black woman."

Lastly, wikipedia is *supposed to be* based on proof, not individual subjective reasoning. A reference (such as Episode 116, 5:29 seconds into the show) is harder evidence than "I think black people should be drawn like that and other brown skinned people like this" --Yellowfiver 06:58, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Dattebayo subs can be wrong, it as been proven before. Until Kubo can say that Yoruichi is specifically black, forget about it. Don't take a characters word for it. I believe dark-skinned is a suitable description, because she isn't exactly black either. Also the cover of takabon 17 shows her colour as brown, not black.Anyway, why is it so important to say she is black?--Hanaichi 07:18, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Where are you guys from??? Black people also have brown skin. Wow, here in the states black people range from dark chocolate colored to caramel to pale. I suppose there's still a slight chance she is from SE Asia, and maybe "black woman" actually means other things. I'm willing to keep an open mind, but you guys seem to write her off using very subjective arguments. And its not taking a characters word. It's taking the translator's words. The reason why it is important is because people ask this question, and then very opinionated people say 'no' as if they are right when there is persuasive evidence to the contrary.--Yellowfiver 09:41, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

So why take black? Why not dark-skinned?? Using a description over one color seems to make the choice vary of her color. Anyway, if we say shes black, what about the other 80% of the bleach audience who think shes dark-skinned?--Hanaichi 01:51, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Why use black? Maybe because she has been described by official translation. Blacks also happen to be dark-skinned. In any case it still would be fair to put in the article that she at least might be a dark-skinned black person. Again, even though I actually have a case I'm willing to see other evidence...like real references not just your opinion. As far as 80% of bleach characters thinking she has a tan or is some Southeast Asian...well, there's something I like to call a popular misconception, the average person is an idiot.--Yellowfiver 07:07, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

This is a really stupid argument. Dark-skinned is fine. The series never makes any mention of her ethnicity, so you shouldn't be assuming it. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 16:01, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Someguy, this argument is just ridiculous. Stop preaching about references over opinions, Yellow. I have yet to see your undeniable proof that she is in fact black. Until then, it should stay as 'dark-skinned'. // DecaimientoPoético 16:26, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if we can put pictures in the discussion page. Anyways here it is Yoruichi description by Yammy. I understand your points though. She doesn't have full lips or other features we would assume a black character should have. I doubt they meant Indian or Thai with the word 'black', its certainly plausible...but unlikely. --Yellowfiver 18:09, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

The problem with using that as a reference for Yoruichi being Black is that its from a fansub. I have nothing against Dattebayo, as I think they sub really well, but we cant use their translation for that scene and take it as fact. If someone who speaks Japanese took a look at that scene, would they also translate it as such? Besides, I dont think that material was even in the manga. --GhostStalker(Got a present for ya! | Mission Log) 18:17, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Definitely. And I can understand that not being used as an official reference. I'll get my sources in Japan to research it for me and come up with something more concrete. But I wonder, if they find multiple manga or other sources referring to her as black in Japanese how would I be able to prove it to English speaking readers? Make the burden of proof more difficult because I have a feeling that Yammy's statement isn't an isolated incident. --Yellowfiver 19:20, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

If it's of any use, in the manga translation I have Yammy simply calls her "dark", so there's a differing choice of words between translators. ~SnapperTo 20:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Mine said "dark" as well, so I'm guessing it wasn't referring to the race. What word does Japanese use to refer to Black people anyway? (Black people has no corresponding ja.wiki link.) --tjstrf talk 20:27, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Looking at the RAW for chapter 198, Yammy seems to use 黒 to describe her, which as the link will tell you translates as both "black" and "dark". ~SnapperTo 20:43, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

... and then there's a second kanji I failed to notice which gives us 黒い, which wiktionary exclusively translates as "black". ~SnapperTo 20:47, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah, but that same link leads us to black, which notes that the word for a black person in Japanese is 黒人, kokujin, not 黒い, which is kuroi and means the colour. So he was indeed referring to her skin tone, not saying she was a Black. --tjstrf talk 02:04, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

lol, I think you have your mind made up. Doesn't kokujin specifically mean 'black foreigner.' A friend of mine whose half-black and Japanese and lived in Japan until college says he is still considered black but not foreigner (to most Japanese) because he was born there and speaks the language. Besides, what other people on earth are called black besides blacks? Aborigines? lol. Anyways, I've had enough of this debate (for now) and I guess I'm the only one who was smart enough to have figured this out so I won't change anything until I come back in a few weeks with more proof...that someone will deny for some reason. Just remember, Tousen who is undeniably black (maybe not to you) isn't drawn like mr. popo. --Yellowfiver 11:09, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't see what proof you could come up with that would prove your case since the manga is fairly clear cut about it; Yammy does say she is black, but he is not referring to her ethnicity. The end. ~SnapperTo 18:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

You have a most ingenious method of debating, Snapper. If its stupid then don't put in your cents. You've added the least amount to this discussion. Echoing tjstrf et. al means nothing to me. If you have nothing to contribute, cosign then move along. As far as ethnicity, I said she was black. Yammy said she was black. Sometimes things are as clear as black and white. The end. --Yellowfiver 00:31, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

You have a most ingenious method of debating, Yellow. When your viewpoint is proven false, you jump down others' throats and all the while suggest that you are still correct. I am so sorry to have wasted your time that could have been better used making sweeping generalizations that Americans would do better to feel more comfortable with. I am also sorry that my providing of the kanji used by Yammy does not compare to your promises of asking some nameless Japanese-speaking acquaintance for confirmation of your opinion. In the future, I'll try doing nothing at all, and instead spout obscenities at everyone who doesn't agree with me. Then the world will be a better place, where nobody will waste ten seconds of someone's very valuable time. ~SnapperTo 00:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

That was a thorough rebuttal. I actually confused you with someguy not realizing 'snapper' had written the posts about the manga. Nevertheless, your evidence isn't conclusive. Neither is mine. The manga said she was black, but didn't specifically refer to her ethnicity, that does not mean that they were excluding the possibility that she is black, nor does it endorse the idea that she is SE Asian. Since when does 'black' imply SE Asian? I know in some cultures the term black refers simply to darker skinned people. You may be more familiar with Japanese culture, do they have a history of referring to darker Asians as black or having black colored skin? --Yellowfiver 17:48, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, Tosen's resemblance to an actual Black person is the most compelling evidence of all for Yoruichi's being Southeast Asian instead. --tjstrf talk 18:56, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

What's funny is that there is an actual answer for this, and you may be right. I wish we could ask the animators themselves. --Yellowfiver 00:31, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

If you guys dont mind me asking, why is this such a controversial issue? I mean, is it really necessary that we mention she's of African or Indian or Thai descent? It would be so much simpler to say that she's a dark-skinned woman until some agreement can be reached through civil conversation, no bickering or subtle attacks, and a calm demeanor from all users. This whole topic is becoming a bigger deal than the arguing is worth, in my opinion. // DecaimientoPoético 17:56, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Just as a comment in this conversation (not sure it's been said before), you may want to know that English is one of the few (and maybe the only) language where 'black person' almost necessarily means African. In other languages, including Japanese, a black person does not carry ethnic connotations and may refer to any dark-skinned person. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 18:03, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Not necessarily, In Chinese it carries the racial connotation, and one'd think that it might have passed to Japanese since the Japanese language is influenced by both Chinese and English, both of which carries it.

And to counter your statement..... How can the English influence the Japanese? Firstly, the Japanese think its cool to say short english phrases, sure, but Japanese is one of the language that applying the word "black" to a person doesn't mean he/she is a black person. I've checked it out with my dads Japanese friend. And Chinese carries "the racial connotation"?? Dude, I would say the English carries it more so than the Chinese.--Hanaichi 23:49, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Argumentum ad populum --Yellowfiver 09:41, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

In the Bleach world, everyone is divided by their species rather than their skin color and etc.: Humans, Shinigami, Hollow, Quincy, and Bount. Unlike the human world, people don't have a nationality or defining race; if you want to go by this, everyone in the Soul Society is Japanese (except Soifon), based on their name. Yoruichi is just dark-skinned. Her skin color does nothing for the story but bring a little diversity, but that's it. This really shouldn't be an argument.--Shadedtiger

Why dose it matter what race she is?? We're not going to know her race unless Tite Kubo says...or we die not know.lol (ps am new here) --Bankaiwolfspirit 21:32, 27 September 2007 (UTC)Bankaiwolfspirit

The problem is not that she is one ethnicity or another. She could be African, Dominican, Brazilian, Indian, or any of these countries that have darker toned people. The problem under all of this is obvious.

Let me post an example to start, in bleach you can name 2 characters that are of dark skin tone, Tousen and Yoruichi. If you go to any forum and ask "What is Yoruichi?" There is a toss between "shes Indian/African(black)" and then others arguing it does not matter.

Tousen, being dark skinned, and a male but has dreadlocks as a hair style. He doesn't look like your stereotypical black man, nor does he act like one, yet he is automatically labeled as a black person.

Yoruichi, being dark skinned and having the same hair color as tousen, with a straight hair style, is argued about. This is because the majority of people on those type of sites, are indeed male Caucasians, ranging in ages. I will explain why this is an issue.

1) Tousen having dreads automatically makes him "black": Not only ebony people have dreads to begin with. I have seen plenty of Caucasian males living in the isles that take on this hair style. But given his skin color and choice of hair style, people seem to know for sure that he is ebony. Remember, even people with dreads sometimes have hair extensions, which is why you can see Caucasians with dreads generally. Yes, some ebony men/women have the hair to do this naturally, but some do not. This is the same with Caucasians/Asians/Hispanics. Even an Indian man could have dreads with hair extensions, so who is to say Tousen is not Indian with such work done to his hair? He is labeled automatically due to ignorance, and stereotypes.

2) Yoruichi being Indian, over "black": In the same instance, we have a female with very dark skin, very large breasts, and athletic body and long purple hair. She very well could be black, but the problem is....some people do not want her to be black, because they are not attracted to "black" people, so the first thing that comes to mind is someone that is dark skinned that is not of African decent, which usually turns up "Indian" in most people's heads that have this mind set.

So lets set some misconceptions in the open, shall we?

A) Not all "black" people look a like, they come from many different places, and just like other humans very in looks. People saying "Niggers all look alike" are ignorant, because if they did, we would not be able to identify people of importance or celebrity status if they did, it's a weak argument if they bring this point up. Not every black person has a big nose, huge lips, or giants asses. Not all black people are very muscular, vulgar and rude.

If you have not seen an attractive black person, it's because you don't want to see it because they are being so stereotypical that they refuse to see it any other way. (Also, most Indians are not that dark, and have breasts that large.)

B) Yoruichi's hair...straight, pony tail. Many black girls can have pony tails, many have nice flowing hair. It's called maintaining appearance. Yes, some black people need such things are curling irons to make their hair straight, but some don't. Just like some people of other ethnicity's use them, even caucasians.

There is nothing with her hair that could not be achieved by some black people, even the very straight pointy hair in the front. Come on, you've seen those ghetto girls with the pasted down hair styles that look like they could punch out a tire :).

It is true that some hair of African females are much like the male counter parts, which is close to impossible to achieve straight hair of course.

C) "She doesn't act black." She doesn't act like many Caucasians I know either, and she has the dialect of an old man. This will probably be the only thing I type in caps, so don't miss it. PEOPLE ARE INDIVIDUALS: DO NOT THINK FOR A MINUTE THAT ALL PEOPLE ARE CAST FROM THE SAME MOLD. That is the most idiotic shit anyone can ever say, not everyone is from the ghetto, and even then there are people in the ghetto that are not ghetto, they just cannot afford to get out of the situation they're in, but unlike others they are trying to.

Not all caucasians are back-stabbing, or greedy, or serial killers. Not all Asians are smart, anti-social to other ethnicity's or have small penises. In other words, you are insulting your intelligence just by muttering those words.

How about I say you don't act human? Because with that mentality you sure don't act like someone that tries to live with other humans, rather than push them away.

I'm tired of writing, I might add more later but in short: People hate on others so much, that they do not realize everyone is different, in looks, actions, behavior. There are ugly people of every ethnicity, and they're are the "hot", and mostly I feel sorry for the people that cannot grasp this concept, or have to edit dark penises out of hentai to fap.

I guess everyone has to hate something, but at least I don't hate people. I don't even hate their actions because we are human and can make mistakes, but I do not approve of things this ignorant and push people farther apart. You know what I hate? Sharks, and not getting enough sleep. That is about it.--Spectrebane 17:54, 13 October 2007 (UTC) 17:51, 13 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spectrebane (talk • contribs) 17:22, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

For the sake of all decency, since when does a cartoon character's ethnicity matter? Besides, isn't she supposed to be some sort of shapeshifter or something that isn't truly human in the first place? (I've never seen the show, just reading the articles about it, so correct me if I'm wrong on that.) Of course, a black girl in an anime who doesn't perpetuate the stereotype in any possible way is a nice statement, but as for Yoruichi, she's probably some fictional dark-skinned ethnicity that doesn't even exist in real life. --Sparx-1 4:07 PM, November 13, 2007 (CDT) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sparx-1 (talk • contribs) 22:09, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that's she's almost definitely Indian. Indian characters in anime are very often shown as having purple, or purple tinted black hair, presumably to distinguish them from characters of other races but similar features, which can really be either black or japanese depending on skin tone. Examples include Anthy Himemiya from Utena, and the title character from Earth Maiden Arjuna. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.239.7.2 (talk) 21:08, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Who CARES!? On other anime characters, nobody argues what racial background they have. -Yancyfry (talk) 05:14, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Sinebot, considering Tousen kaname also has purple hair, your guess could be wrong. Also all of the other characters in anime, like Tsukasa and Kagami from lucky star, would be Indian. Hair color can mean personality, or just plain whatever the artist feels they want it to be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spectrebane (talk • contribs) 14:55, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

This 'discussion' has become an argument, and a petty one at that. Indian? Black? Thai? Unless Kubo tells us, it is not true, and judging by his 'recalcitrance' in doing so, I'd wager that it doesn't really matter to anyone who is not seeking some sort of affirmation in discovering an anime character who shares their ethnicity. Wait for Kubo to give us more info or let us know explicitly; speculation can be fun, but in this case it has not, and will not, get us anywhere. I should also say that claiming 'special insight' through a limited knowledge of linguistics, or by applying decidedly real-world naming conventions to something in a fictional universe is fallacious and foolish. --Tvs117 —Preceding comment was added at 21:25, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Everybody keeps saying who cares, well ok, if that's the case then take out the line that she's dark skinned. What's the point of having it in there? Maybe when there's a subplot that deals with it, yeah, put it there to help explain that subplot. You're scarred some kid won't be able to figure that out or worse not notice at all? I know knowbody will admit this but by actually putting the line that she's darkskinned implies that somehow it's abnormal. Ichigo having natural orange hair is weirder than Yoruichi having darkskin and/or *gasp* being black. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.36.77.7 (talk) 15:22, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Another subject that is very suited for hot debate but would be deemed insignificant due to the lack of any evidence to support it. Is whether or not the female lead Yoruichi of the famous anime series Bleach is actually black or not. Now, the word ‘black’ alone comes with it’s many racial connotations. That is, something dark, someone dark-skinned depending on the language, context and usage of course. Now there are many exceptions in terms of anime, because there are characters in the anime world that have dark skins for no reason at all except to provide diversity for the characters that play in the series. But the blunt question still remains. “Is she black?” So is Yoruichi black or not? This still remains an ambiguity that eludes us all as editors of Wikipedia. But then there is the possible chance that the character creator Tite Kubo will support our claims with an interview someday, but that also remains something he would not discuss upon. Which is a very good thing because as a character creator this debate could really mean nothing to him. I mean nothing at all. Then there may or may not be supportive claims that she may be black, if so where is the evidence? My opinion which is also supported by the simple fact that the Bleach characters are not divided by race but by species. I.e. Human, Soul Reaper, Quincy, etc. and that really renders this argument rather invalid in terms of the Bleach universe but, typically we must find any means necessary to include our world somewhere to establish our doctrines and our setbacks upon things. This is how the argument came to be and this is rather the weakness of the argument. The Bleach universe does not connect at all with our racial connotations. If it does however, I will respect your claims and be happy to know that perhaps the creators did intend to make the reality of race transcend Fantasy, not of any significance to them on their part.Stoical Iceman (talk) 19:00, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Just to clarify, when was it said Kisuke Urahara developed the bankai doll?From Viz manga Volume 15, Chapter 127, Beginning of the death of tomorrow, a very dense Ichigo asks "whats with the goofy looking doll?" to Yoruichi. She says its "Tenshintai, a divine transfer body" and "its a vital spiritual tool of the secret police." I think Urahara was the first one who mastered Bankai using that method, because I don't recall Yoruichi saying "Kisuke developed the method".--Hanaichi 06:29, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

She says: Kisuke tested it on himself. Key word: tested. It's his invention. If it were something in common use, bankai would be a hell of a lot more common. See episode 48 for the specifics. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 08:24, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't know how much more common bankai would be, given that the doll is supposed to be rather dangerous to use. If a shinigami's not already on the verge of bankai-level power, they're liable to kill themselves by attempting it. 71.203.209.0 20:49, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Chapter 132 page 17 says that Kisuke first tested the device on himself, and a mangarain scanlation I have translates it as if he also invented it (might be a finer point of the Japanese language I don't understand which implies he also invented it?) In any case, at least we can be sure that no one used this before Urahara, even if he did not invent it. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 09:21, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Why is she categorized in the werecat one? I thought she was a shapeshifter and can change into anything. If there a source confirming that she is a werecat? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 17:19, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

werecat? what is a werecat? But i really don't see why she is classifided as one.Ultimaterasengan 22:03, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Is there a source saying she can turn into anything? Werecat is defined as someone who can shapeshift into a feline form, which Yoruichi is able to do. ~SnapperTo 22:42, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

If we go by that logic, should we assume that Yoruichi is a werecat? Isn't there a source verifying it? The Bleach books perhaps. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 23:36, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

There are as many sources saying she's a werecat as there are sources saying Shinigami can fly (none). The concept is the same, so that's good enough for these completely irrelevant categories. ~SnapperTo 01:00, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Fine by me. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 02:22, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

If you think about it, she's sorta like an Animagouse, the way she changes from cat to human is much like the way Sirius Black changes from dog to human in Harry Potter, further more this would explain why she's a cat, not a wolf or something -CatinAsagi —Preceding unsigned comment added by CaptinAsagi (talk • contribs) 02:01, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Its animagus. this is all ignoring what she said in the anime when asked how she turned into a cat by Ichigo she replied "i put on a cat costume." Given the weird artifacts she has shown the Shihoin family to have (including one made to destroy the Soul Reaper's main tool of execution...) its safe to say she may just have a artifact that changes her into a cat rather than this being an innate ability.--Licourtrix (talk) 09:01, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

In the 14th voulme of Bleach on the 25th page, 4th panal, you can planiy see a zanpakuto in hte background, is it Yoruichi's?Ultimaterasengan 00:18, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Its sorta new news but she can use an abilty called Utsesmi(spell check). Byakuya in the manga mentions how he didnt wanna use that move from that woman. It allows the enemy to strike at them thinking that they hit them but in reality it was a shadow image sorta say. If you guys can remember Yoruichi used this move on Byakuya when she was carrying Ichigo :P. She also has this abilty in the video game Bleach Blade Battlers 2nd. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fate216 (talk • contribs) 23:51, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Oooo interesting, although it was never stated that Yoruichi used that technique. I suppose we could add a sentence like "During a brief fight with Byakuya, Yoruichi used a technique quite similar to utsusemi, creating an image of her being injured while she actually wasn't."--Hanaichi 01:25, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

This article is rife with grammatical errors; ambiguity of tenses, syntax, etc. Revisions need to be made. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tvs117 (talk • contribs) 20:55, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Then fix it. --Farix (Talk) 22:05, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I have changed the article since I agree that till Tite Kubo announces it or Yoruichi states it that we should not put it in the article. We cannot just assume since in the sword she is shown with could just be that a sword. But since we have no liable proof besides logic that she does or doesn't have a zanpaktou we should not put it in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.237.183.83 (talk) 01:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Well... -shrug- I'm not really into this topic, so I won't do anything about anything you changed. But well, a shinigami would rather carry their own sword as opposed to *random katana x*, I s'pose. Oh, and only zanpakuto purify hollows, right? -pokes anime flashback w/ Soifon- IceUnshattered (talk) 22:10, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Sigh.Cant Be Help.How Annoying.As We All Know That Urahara Kisuke/浦原喜助 Was Also A Captain.He Is Ex-12th Division Captain,The Founder Of Technological Research Bureau And Ex-Chief For The 3rd Special Op Division,The Detention Unit.As For Shihoin Yoruichi/四楓院 夜一 Is Also Captain Of The 2nd Squad And The Commander For The Special Ops When Urahara Kisuke Was Also A Captain.In Other Words,The Covert Ops Essentially Reports Directly To The 2nd Squad.In The Other Meaning It Already Apart Of The Gotei 13 Squad.It's Broken Up Into Five Divisions And She's Also The Chief Of The 2nd Division And Urahara Kisuke/浦原喜助 Is The Chief For The 3rd Division Or Also Know As The Detention Unit.So It Also Can Be Count As Apart Of Gotei 13.Understand?

(Background: this was merged without discussion in 2008). As I was to AfD a version of this article I found on pl wiki, BEFORE did give me a single good source, an academic analysis of the character: [1], IA mirror. I see a paragraph of in-depth analysis on p. 94 [2] and a bit less but still non trivial on p. 91 [3]. I can summarize this, but it is still just one source, and GNG requires multiple. Can anyone find anything else? Ping User:Daranios, User:Jclemens, User:Cunard, User:ReaderofthePack, User:VickKiang. I'll mention that there are of course some mentions in anime-themed fan/news sites, but what I see is really the "bottom of the barrel" stuff, which these days might as well be AI-generated clickbait ("10 Bleach characters with best hairstyles", etc) . I did dig up one media source that seems decent, from Gamerant. Think we have enough to restore this?- -_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:46, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm confused... this is currently redirected on en.wiki, but you're looking for help with sources to see if pt.wiki can be kept as a standalone article? Is that right? Jclemens (talk) 15:50, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi Piotrus (talk · contribs), thank you for the ping. I found this source about the subject:

Kemner, Louis (2020-12-29). "Bleach: How Yoruichi Shihoin Became Soul Society's Rogue Hero. Bleach's Yoruichi Shihoin had it all as a Soul Reaper, but she gave it all up to do the right thing". Comic Book Resources. Archived from the original on 2023-01-23. Retrieved 2023-01-23.

The article notes: "At first, it's easy to think that Yoruichi is self-centered and hedonistic and that she would just want to save her own skin when disaster strikes. But the Turn Back the Pendulum mini-arc made it clear that Yoruichi cared nothing for wealth and status. She cared about doing the right thing, at any cost. ... Yoruichi isn't in it for fame or glory; she's here to make sure that justice is served, no matter what."

My reading of Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 379#Is Comic Book Resources a reliable source? is that Comic Book Resources is a marginally reliable source. With the sources you found, I think there is enough to restore Yoruichi Shihōin as a standalone article. Cunard (talk) 01:08, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

@Jclemens I'd like to restore this a a proper article on en wiki. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:14, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I have no objections, but I'm not particularly a Bleach expert--just watched through the Anime once (well, except I haven't started TYBW yet). Jclemens (talk) 05:00, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

The article is inconsistent; sometimes Soifon, sometimes Suì Fēng. It'd definitely not the latter per MOS:PINYIN, so do the series mostly call her Soifon or Sui Feng? I have vague memories of Viz calling her Soifon but that this was changed by editorial fiat. CohenTheBohemian (talk) 16:22, 28 August 2023 (UTC)