Talk:Valar

Article title

  • 1. The article does not need a DAB. Unlike "dwarf", "elf", "dragon" and "man", "Vala" is a term unique to Tolkien's work.
  • 2. If it did have a dab, "Middle-earth" is not the appropriate one, as it is an "in-universe" term. "Tolkien" would be a better DAB if one is insisted on.
  • 3. The article has been indefinitely move-locked since 2009 by @Graham87:, which would seem to be a bit of an over-reaction to a little move-warring. Beyond My Ken (talk) 13:09, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly someone didn't think much to people moving a whole bunch of articles to new DAB titles without discussion, hmm? Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:13, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Middle-earth" is a name used within Tolkien's universe (and is not unique to it). We are not within Tolkien's universe, we are in the real world, and our DABs should represent that real world, not the in-universe world. "Star War: is not in-universe, and "Star Trek" is not "in-universe", they are both real-world terms for the universe of those franchises. We are an encyclopedia used by people, some of whom have a great deal of knowledge about Tolkien's world, and some of whom have none. Only the knowledgable ones will know about "Middle-earth", but all (or practically all) will know "Tolkien". Hence "Tolkien" is the appropriate DAB. Beyond My Ken (talk) 13:34, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Middle-earth" is a name of the same kind as "Star Trek" or for that matter "Marvel Universe", a descriptor of a fictional world, and (extremely) well known to the hundreds of millions who have read Tolkien, and many more (billions now) who have seen Jackson's films or Amazon's TV series. The fact that the term has a specialized academic usage doesn't alter that fact. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:21, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't the original move-protector; I was just restoring a protection after a deletion due to a history merge. The person who protected this page against moves was NawlinWiki, in response to Grawp. Since this user's page moves are no longer a going concern, I've unprotected the page. Graham87 15:35, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Protected edit request on 4 October 2022

The "Concept and Creation" section states: "However, Ilúvatar is present as the supreme Creator God who brings the Valar into existence and is shown to be a being of a higher order." This wording suggests that Ilúvatar is merely one of a higher order of beings; it was clearly not Tolkien's intention to present Ilúvatar as one of another hierarchy of beings; Ilúvatar is singular. I suggest, as a less ambiguous and therefore more accurate wording: "However, Ilúvatar is present as the supreme Creator God who brings the Valar into existence and is shown to be of a higher order of being." rowley (talk) 18:57, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. Jmrowland, the previous full protection seems to have been a mistake, so I have just removed it (and notified the protecting administrator). Thanks, DanCherek (talk) 17:29, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! Best regards. rowley (talk) 11:04, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This has been removed. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:28, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

at odds with The Silmarillion's claims

>> most powerful of the Valar, as he was the only one who possessed all aspects of Eru's thought << - Manwe was closest to Eru in thought; Melkor was the most powerful due to him having a share of the powers of all the other Ainur - The Silmarillion is the "finished product" and should at least be mentioned, if not over-riding the older versions of the tale from the various post-books by C.T. 2603:6080:21F0:7880:30FE:2791:E645:B198 (talk) 15:20, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Tweaked the wording. The idea that the published book is "the finished product" is however nonsense; neither the body of Tolkien scholars, nor Christopher Tolkien himself indeed, would claim that, but this isn't the place for such reasoning anyway. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:16, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Valar in Middle-earth/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: LunaEatsTuna (talk · contribs) 07:12, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • After reviewing cosmology of Tolkien's legendarium I think this article was the next natural progression. Anyways, I have now placed this on hold. As always, please ping me once you are done so I can know when to reevaluate. Thanks! ツLunaEatsTuna (💬)— 08:06, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • LunaEatsTuna Many thanks. I think all those are done now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:17, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • Nice work on yet another great Middle-earth article! I am now happy to pass this article for GA status. Congrats! ツLunaEatsTuna (💬)— 10:14, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Copyvio check

  • No copyvio issues found. Earwig gives one concern, but said webpage was published 20 July 2022 and the content evidently taken directly from Wikipedia. The quotations used are necessary and used in-line with WP:COPYQUOTE.
    • Noted.

Files

All images are relevant, of acceptable quality, and copyright-free:

File:Baldr dead by Eckersberg.jpg: valid public domain rationale;
File:Lippi Tobias and Archangel Raphael.jpg: valid public domain rationale.
    • Noted.

Lead

  • Italicise Ainulindalë in the lead.
    • Done.
  • "enter the World" – does World need to be capitalised?
    • Yes, as in "Earth", the planet, where Middle-earth is a continent.
      • Oh, that makes sense.
  • "that the Elves" – wiki Elves in Middle-earth.
    • Done.
  • "but were developed earlier in material published posthumously" – should it not be later? Or, rephrase to state that the Valar were developed by Tolkien before LotR and then published posthumously.
    • Reworded.

Origin and acts

  • "Melkor (later named Morgoth, "dark enemy")" – is Morgoth his name in one of the Elvish languages?
    • Sindarin.
  • "arrives in the World first" – same capitalisation concern as bullet point two in Lead.
    • As above.
  • "darkness and ugliness of Melkor's discordant noise." – discordant noise sounds a bit metaphorical for an encyclopaedia IMO.
    • Ah, but it literally was, as Melkor interfered with the Music of the Valar that shaped the World.
      • My bad!
  • "destruction of the Two Lamps" – I know this is a redirect but I think it is worth wikilinking.
    • Done.
  • The Noldorin Elf is mentioned before Noldor with only Noldor wikilinked (which I think is correct), but is there any way at all to mention Noldor first? Or perhaps Noldorin could be wikilinked instead?
    • Fixed.
  • "hidden city of Gondolin" – wikilink Gondolin.
    • Done.
  • "all the Ainur who enter Arda (the World)" – (the World) is unnecessary.
    • Gone.

The chief Valar

  • Valier does not need to be in boldface.
    • Yes, it's a redirect target: the Valier don't have a separate article.
      • I see now.
  • "like the classical Greek gods" – sounds really out of place to me.
    • OK, discussed elsewhere.
  • "Eru the One is not pleased, as the" – this is the only time in this article that Eru is referred to by this title. Is there a reason for this?
    • Fixed.
  • The description for Mandos in the table is split into three paragraphs whilst none of the others are.
    • Closed up.
  • "Named Irmo, butmore" – but more.
    • Fixed.
  • "Fleeter of foot" – is this correct?
    • Yes, but too flowery. Fixed.
  • "The Elvish hymn 'A Elbereth Gilthoniel'" – should be A Elbereth Gilthoniel.
    • Fixed.
  • "Nessa The Dancer" – is this right or should it be "Nessa the Dancer" like the others?
    • Yes, it's right. 'The Dancer' is her name or epithet, like 'Lady of the Stars' for Varda, etc. It's on a separate line, too.
      • Noted.

Language

  • "would be the proto-language of the Elves" – wikilink proto-language.
    • Done.
  • "Ten years later he" – recommend "in the 1940s" or providing a more specific date if one is known?
    • Done.
  • "Manwë, Ulmo, and Oromë, are" – no need to wikilink Oromë here.
    • Gone.

Analysis

  • "Critics such as" – critics?
    • Scholars.
  • Wikilink John Garth (author) instead. You could try go mention Tolkien and the Great War separately.
    • Done.
  • "Tolkien compared King Théoden of Rohan" – wikilink Rohan, Middle-earth.
    • Done.
  • "Tolkien's Elves to Varda/Elbereth as" – recommend just Varda.
    • Reworded; the hymns use "Elbereth".
      • Oh!!

Refs

  • Passes spotcheck—no concerns with primary refs 11–13, 20 or 22, or refs 1, 4, 7 or 10.
    • Noted.

Others

  • Short desc, quote templates, DEFAULTSORT, navs, other templates and cats good.
    • Noted.
  • Please add WP:ALT text if you can.
    • Added.
  • Efn notes a and b could use citations.
    • Added.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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