Talk:Super Saiyan/Archive 2

This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Since the talk page was getting so long. If you would like to continue past conversations or have something to discuss about the current article, please do so below. Voice of Treason 18:44, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Throughout all of the Dragonball series, GT is the only one with a female (Pan) who's even 1/4 saiyan. I want to know why females can't go super saiyan. I heard that Akira had a hard time making them look like SSJs or something like that and when I tried to picture Pan as a SSJ, it ended up looking like an ordinary blond girl (just with spiky hair.) --Sasuke-kun27 21:17, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Does it really matter? KojiDude (talk) 21:23, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Not really. But it wouldn't hurt to point it out and ask. --Sasuke-kun27 21:33, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I guess Toriyama never drew one, seeing as how there isn't a single cannon female Saiyan that plays a big role in DBZ, nor is there a non cannon one with the right power or motivation to reach it. KojiDude (talk) 21:36, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

pan probably isn't strong enough.--Geterdone 12:56, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

It was never stated that female Saiyans cannot go SSJ or higher, in fact they probably can, however both awnsers have been said here. Both Pan and Bulla (Bra) never had the motivation to become one and Akira Toriyama did not know how to make female SSJ look good, in fact, he also had the problem with regular female saiyans, since none have appeared. The female saiyans you get to see in flashbacks and in the bardock special, like Fasha, are not cannon, created by TOEI and not by Akira Toriyama. Just for the good record, Akira Toriyama did not create GT, he only helped a little with some character designs.

Core4Sure

Both Pan and Bra are canon saiyans since they appear in the manga, but they were never shown to be able to transform. The GT Perfect File just infers that females can possibly transform.

Just putting this out there, but I also noticed that they don't have any tails either. Sasuke-kun27 23:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Probably for the same reason Trunks and Goten do. Pan might not have even had one scince she was only 1/4 Saiyan.--KojiDude 23:45, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

i know dbaf is just a hoax or fan art whatever but can anyone tell me where are pics of anything higher than than ss10?

No, because there is no SS10. Try asking for your fanart on a forum or something.

Daishokaioshin 22:43, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

then where is ss10 fan art?--Geterdone 20:57, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I said ask on a FORUM. This is NOT a FORUM. This is a page that is related to the article Super Saiyan, not a form of SSJ that doesn't exist. Daishokaioshin 05:33, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Why is he still listed as an SS even after I changed it? Majin Vegeta didn't have the electricity with him half the time. He was an SS2. So is Vegeto.

http://www.nfsupreme.com/hostees/dranet/mangas/showimg.php?file=/Dragon%20Ball%20%26%20DBZ%20Manga/volume38/Db38ch12/381201.gif

That's Majin Vegeta with no electricty. He was an SS2 the whole time and never powered down.- indianhitman 7/29/2006

Majin Vegeta was SSJ at that time. He didn't go ssj2 until he started the fight with Goku. KojiDude (talk) 22:46, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

None of which has anything to do with Vegetto. Vegetto can not be determined to be SSJ1 or SSJ2, but evidence points to him using SSJ1. See the archives where this is discussed in-depth.

Daishokaioshin 23:27, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

When Goku and Majin Vegeta fought, their electricity was always there, wether they were resting or talking or fighting. Same goes for Gohan, his electricity was always there, no matter how much power he was exerting. Vegetto was SSJ1.--KojiDude (talk) 23:43, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

http://www.nfsupreme.com/hostees/dranet/mangas/showimg.php?file=/Dragon%20Ball%20%26%20DBZ%20Manga/volume38/Db38ch13/381303.gif

That page Majin Vegeta as electricity

http://www.nfsupreme.com/hostees/dranet/mangas/showimg.php?file=/Dragon%20Ball%20%26%20DBZ%20Manga/volume38/Db38ch13/381304.gif

That page he doesn't.

http://www.nfsupreme.com/hostees/dranet/mangas/showimg.php?file=/Dragon%20Ball%20%26%20DBZ%20Manga/volume38/Db38ch13/381307.gif

No electricty

Majin Vegeta was always an SS2. His power had been unlocked and as long as He had that M on his head he was an SS2. He can never power down from that state.

Now SS has no electricity and SS2 has electricity. Vegeto had electricity. How can all evidence put Vegeto as SS, when SS doesn't have electricity.

http://www.nfsupreme.com/hostees/dranet/mangas/showimg.php?file=/Dragon%20Ball%20%26%20DBZ%20Manga/volume39/Db39ch06/390610.gif

No electricity. he was fighting.

"None of which has anything to do with Vegetto."

Yes it does. They were both SS2.

Gohan doesn't always have his electricity either.

http://www.nfsupreme.com/hostees/dranet/mangas/showimg.php?file=/Dragon%20Ball%20%26%20DBZ%20Manga/volume35/Db35ch01/350113.gif

Anyway saying that an SS2 always has electricity is like saying that an SS always has a glow. They aren't always there. But when an SS has electricty, it means that they are SS2. SS does not have eletricity. I don't know how you can keep arguing against this. I'm not going to post anything else.- indianhitman, 29/7/06

None of those pictures are right. They don't show Majin Vegeta. He didn't go SSJ2 until he began the fight with Goku, at that point, no matter what they were doing, relaxing or fighting, they had electricity. Vegetto had it for one brief moment on one page. He wasn't SSJ2.--KojiDude (talk) 03:16, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Edit: As for Gohan, every page besides that one he has the electricity. By giving that link, you proved yourself wrong. Look a little more before you post things like this, please. (Not meant to be offensive)--KojiDude (talk) 03:28, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

http://www.nfsupreme.com/hostees/dranet/mangas/showimg.php?file=/Dragon%20Ball%20%26%20DBZ%20Manga/volume35/Db35ch02/350212.gif http://www.nfsupreme.com/hostees/dranet/mangas/showimg.php?file=/Dragon%20Ball%20%26%20DBZ%20Manga/volume35/Db35ch02/350213.gif

Gohan no electricity.

Vegeta was Majin. We know this because of the M on his head. He can not power down from the SS2. Vegeto had it at that point. Which means that he was at SS2. The rest of the fight he may have been SS. But he definilty went SS2. Proof the electricity.- indianhitman

The electricity obviousley must go away when the SSJ2 uses up alot of power. he first Gohan pic was just a drawing error. Majin Vegeta could power down if he wanted to, but there was no need. Majin Vegeta was SSJ until he fought Goku. Vegetto wasn't SSJ2 if he had electricity for ONE panel on ONE page. There are only a few instances where Gohan has no electricity, and those are when light and wind from auras/attacks are around, which is logical. Majin Vegeta and Goku always had electricity, even when they were calmly talking and getting out Senzu. Vegetto was NOT SSJ2.--KojiDude (talk) 06:00, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Vegetto never went SS2. The only time he displays electricity is right when he is fused.

This is officially stated in the Daizenshuus (The official Dragonball guides). The only people to achieve Super Saiyan 2 were Gohan, Goku and Vegeta. Majin Vegeta was Super Saiyan 2, Goku in those scans was SS2 as well, but he didn't have electricity either. Majinvegeta

Why does this name keep coming up? It's a fan name! There are two known forms that are between the Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 form. People keep calling them Ultra Super Saiyan 1 and Ultra Super Saiyan 2 or Ascended Super Saiyan and Ultra Super Saiyan. All wrong names.

The first should only be called Super Saiyan 2nd Grade since such a name comes closest to the Japanese term for the form, namely Super Saiyan Dai Ni dankai.

The second should only be called Super Saiyan 3rd Grade since such a name comes closest to the Japanese term for the form, namely Super Saiyan Dai San Dankai.

The most worst name for Super Saiyan 2nd Grade, would be Ascended Super Saiyan, since the true Acended Super Saiyan is in fact Super Saiyan 2. Goku and Vegeta wanted to reach a higher SSJ form during the Androids/Cell arc. They wanted to experience the boost in power, speed and agility all over again, but now from the base of Super Saiyan, meaning their goal was Super Saiyan 2. Super Saiyan 2nd Grade and Super Saiyan 3rd Grade are try-outs of becoming a Super Saiyan 2, thus making Super Saiyan 2, the true ascended Saiyan like Goku also states.

Core4Sure

The Japanese term for the forms is just "Beyond SSJ". I don't know where you got those names, but they are never used in the anime or manga. There is one name for both stages, and if we're going to go by the original names it would have to be "Beyond Super Saiyajin". 2nd Grade and 3rd Grade are as much fan names as Ultra and Ascended. There is no "true ascended super saiyan" since that term comes from the FUNimation dub, which means absolutelt nothing in terms of validity. These are the generally accepted names that are being used in this article. Deal with it.

Daishokaioshin 00:06, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Another thing to think about on this subject, is that Ascended and Ultra are the most commonly used names in america, and this is the English Wikipedia. Both the names are given, anyway, so it's not really a problem.--KojiDude (talk) 00:09, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I guess what KojiDude says is true, nevertheless as to awnser to Daishokaioshin i got my information from Daizenshuu EX, which gives a pretty good explanation:

The USSJ stages (two of them) would each be considered, as Goku puts it in the original Japanese dialogue, "ichi-dankai no henshin" ("transformations of the first stage"). However, these two USSJ stages are thought of by Vegeta and Trunks as "Sûpâ Saiya-jin dai ni-dankai" and "Sûpâ Saiya-jin dai san-dankai" ("stage 2 / stage 3 of Super Saiyan," with "ni" and "san" meaning "two" and "three," respectively) Technically, these descriptions would probably better fit the actual SSJ2 and SSJ3, but we'll use them here as Vegeta & Trunks would.

Sûpâ Saiya-jin dai ichi-dankai (the normal Super Saiyan, or SSJ1)

Sûpâ Saiya-jin dai ni-dankai (USSJ 1; the second stage of SSJ1)

Sûpâ Saiya-jin dai san-dankai (USSJ 2; the third stage of SSJ1)

Since they say it could be confused with SSJ2 and SSJ3, the name 2nd and 3rd grade would apply better, but anyway as Kojidude said there both listed, so I guess it's not a problem.. Core4Sure

The problem is, there is no official name to those tranformations. So fan names are the only thing to go by, and most people call them Ultra SSJ or Ascended. Whatever they are most commonly called, should be used. Lengis 18:38, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Ascended Super Saiyan

For the article for Ascended Super Saiyan, please do not put in the sentence(and is more defined in appearance than before) ever again. The previous sentence(Also the hair gets longer and is is slightly sharper in appearance) is much better. Because the hair of an Ascended Super Saiyan is not defined as previously thought but more sharper in appearance and texture.

64.107.164.130 20:58, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Why was some text of the false super saiyan form deleted. Goku used the form again in the otherworld and because he had reached SSJ during that time, he was in full control. Why was this deleted?

Probably because he didn't use it. The fact that that thing in the Afterlife is non-canon filler aside, Goku never used Giji Super Saiyajin at any point in the anime, and thus there was no original point for him to have obtained the ability. And if he was in full control then it wasn't Giji SSJ. He had normal SSJ, which was far stronger than any false transformation. There would be no REASON for him to use a weak imitation of the real thing.

Daishokaioshin 02:39, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

True and I know that it is filler, but the filler was made by TOEI just like they made DBZ Movie 4. So even though Goku did not need the false super saiyan transformation, it was probably a reference to the movie made by TOEI.

Also in the AWT saga it possible that Toei made a mistake. They wanted to use the Super Saiyan transformation as a surprise to use against Pikkon in the finals, but had the animation of Goku going SS ready to go. So with the animation already drawn they may have decided to make Goku use some of his Super Saiyan power and given of the appearance that he turned into the Giji (or whatever the name they got now) SS instead. Though it states that he doesn't have full control of the power is due to him not being a SS at all at the time of the movie. Now he has full control and can tap into his SS powers without going SS. The only difference is Goku has is pupils showing in his eyes as he doesn't in the movie. You both have a point but that could explain somethings as to the apparent appearance of that form in the AWT. Heat P 05:52, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Trunks' USSJ isn't "mistaken" for SSJ2. In Budokai one, he uses ASSJ and USSJ (called Super Trunks and Super Trunks 2). In Budokai 3, it's clearly supossed to be SSJ2. I haven't played Budokai 2 in a while, but from what I remember it's the same as Budokai 3. Either way, the video games aren't considered a reliable source while writing this article, anyway.--KojiDude 19:27, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Who wrote that it isn't? Probably some disgruntled fanboy who doesn't like GT. GT IS canon as well, Toriyama even joined the series later on. Even if Toriyama had no involvement it would STILL be canon and I have seen no official source say that GT or what happened in it isn't canon, please provide an official source saying proving me wrong. TJ Spyke 04:32, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I think Daishokaioshin should take this one. -- bulletproof ^3:16 04:56, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

...sigh... -- bulletproof ^3:16 05:00, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

The point is that DBGT was made by TOEI and was anime only and not part of the orignal manga...accept it...and i must say...THANK GOD GT is not canon!! I watched GT and it was not that bad, but still the plotholes...the "developments" of the characters...pfff —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.145.149.85 (talk • contribs)

You are mistaken there, GT IS canon. The only arguement i've heard from fans say it's not GT(usually by people who didn't like it) is "Toriyama didm't make it".

• 1)Toei Animantion says it's canon and THEY decide what's canon, not you disgruntled fans.
• 2)Toriyama made several designs for GT, helped work on it later, and gave the show his blessing.
• So everything in GT is canon and official, that means there is a Super Saiyan 4, the Black Star Dragon Balls exist, and everything else in GT is part of the official Dragon Ball canon and just as valid as Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z. TJ Spyke 05:11, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

GT isn't canon. It wasn't created by Toriyama, and it doesn't fit into the continuity of the original manga. By the way, Toriyama decides what's canon, not TOEI.--KojiDude 15:44, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

GT IS canon. Where has it ever been said(other than by fanboys like you) that it isn't? Just because you don't think it counts doesn't mean it's not part of the DB canon. TJ Spyke 20:11, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

To be canon it has to fit into the continuity of the original manga. GT doesn't. It's the same with the movies (Except #9 and #13).--KojiDude 20:13, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

First, how does it not fit in? There wasn't a manga of it to compare the show to. Second, all OFFICIAL sources say it IS canon, it's only fanboys who don't like GT who say it isn't. Stop saying it isn't unless you can provide an official source(meaning Toei or Toriyama) saying it isn't canon. I hate dealing with fanboys who act like they are the ones who determine what is canon. TJ Spyke 20:17, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Stop calling me a "fanboy". I liked GT. I think it was a good series. But most people consider it non-canon, and it doesn't fit in because of the god damn plot holes. Unless you can convince the millions of people in the world that say it's non-canon to think your way, don't change it.--KojiDude 20:26, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

There were plotholes in DBZ and DB too. There are plotholes in every show. It doesn't really matter if fans think it's canon or not. Toei and Toriyama are the only ones who decide what's canon and what isn't. TJ Spyke 20:35, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but GT has more plot holes than DB and DBZ, which is why it is below them in canon. GT can't even take place, scince Majin Buu killed all life on Earth, then all the Good guys were revived. In GT, somehow, Pilaf is alive. That means the whole series couldn't have happened. All you do is say the same things over and over; " It's official! Toei says it's official! Show me where it says it isn't! ". Well, I have shown you. You can't change it just because it's what you want, that would be a bad faith edit.--KojiDude 20:40, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Have you ever considered that Pilaf might not have been on Earth when Buu destroyed it? TJ Spyke 20:43, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Do you have proof that he wasn't? No. Listen, TJ. Personally, I consider everything after the point where Freeza throws the Death Ball at Namek in DBZ non-canon. But scince most people don't think the same way as me, I can't change it. So why should you get to make the changes you want? What makes you so special?--KojiDude 20:46, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

What is canon is what made by the original author. Toriyama has next to nothing to do with GT. He just made some designs in the early production process (SSJ4 isn't from him). It simply means that GT is technically canon because it was approved by the original author in the beginning.

Toriyama didn't create Super #17, or the Black Dragons, or the fight with Baby. Which make GT a work 'much lower in the canon than the previous series, which were directly based on Toriyama's manga.

TJ Spike, do you know that DB isn't an original creation of Tôei Animation ? It was an adaptation of Toriyama's manga, which is the "original manga" which Koji speaks about. It's the "true and undisputable work". And obviously, GT isn't much faithful to that.

There are some plot holes in DB and DBZ, but that makes them a lowxer canon than the manga. Like GT.

Folken de Fanel 20:47, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I feel like i'm an argueing with a brick wall. Where has it officially been said that only what Toriyama created is canon? You could compare Dragon Ball to Star Trek, your arguement is like saying that all series created after TNG are not canon just because Roddenberry didn't create them. Paramount decides what is canon in Star Trek and Tôei decides what is canon in Dragon Ball, I have yet to see official evidence saying otherwise. TJ Spyke 20:54, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Toriyama decides what is canon. Dragon Ball is nothing like Star Trek. TORIYAMA made Dragon Ball. TOEI made GT. If what you were saying was true, all the movies would be canon, and all the fan-made manga's would be canon, and all the Dragon Ball AF drawings would be canon, ect.--KojiDude 21:03, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

It's the principle of the canon itself that says that what is canon is what originates from the true author (Toriyama in this case). It works for every fictional universe. The Expanded Universe of Star Wars is a good example of that : nearly every work of other authors than Lucas are official and copyrighted LucasFilm, but Lucas himself considers most of this Expanded Universe not canon (without mentioning that some of these stories are heavily in contradiction with the original movies).

You have to learn the difference between "official" and "canon".

Tôei doesn't decide anything. As I said, you don't seem to know that Dragon Ball is originally a manga by Toriyama.

Tôei have the right to make animated sequels, but the original author remains Toriyama, and that's only his work which can be absolute canon. Folken de Fanel 21:05, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I know that it started out as a manga, I just want some proof that Toriyama considers GT less canon than DB and DBZ. I am also not saying that things like the movies and fan created stuff should be canon because they are not. I am willing to change my mind if you can find any proof of Toriyama saying GT is less canon than the previous DB's. Also, doesn't Toei own the DB franchise? If so, then they would have the right to determine what's canon. TJ Spyke 21:12, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

You're not getting it. Only what is created by Toriyama is canon. GT was created by TOEI. Unless you can project yourself into some other dimension where Toriyama did make it, it isn't canon. (You should ask the Doc for help with the dimension thing)--KojiDude 21:20, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

You're not getting it either. Where has it been said(other than by fans like you) that only what was created by Toriyama is considered canon? TJ Spyke 21:43, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

It's common sense. He created Dragon Ball. The official and original manga is the only thing that is 100% canon. Where has it been said (besides by you) that TOEI decides what's canon? Are you saying if Toriyama made a new Dragon Ball manga, Toei could just say " That isn't canon "?--KojiDude 21:53, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Just because he didn't create GT(although he did work on it) doesn't mean it isn't canon. I don't know why people can't just accept it as canon. TJ Spyke 21:55, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

TJ, you're not getting it. The true story of DB is Toriyama's manga. That's what started it all, and that the true canon. Thus Toriyama is the only able to create real canon.

What's canon and what's not, is determined by what is created by the original author. Thus GT is lower canon, because Toriyama have nearly nothing to do with it.

Prove that Toriyama wrote the complete storyline of GT, and that he conciders it perfectly canon.

You're personal tastes have nothing to do with it. If you like GT, that's you're right, but you can't make up false rules as you see fit. "Canon" is "what was created by the original author", not "what TJ likes".

And I'm not a fanboy or anything, I don't care about GT, I've never really seen it...On that case, you're the only fanboy. Because beside your own tastes, you didn't show any evidence to your claim that GT is more canon than Toriyama's manga...

Folken de Fanel 21:59, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

TJ, please read when we write something to you. The discussion isn't about wether GT is canon or not. It is canon, but it's the lowest canon possible because it's 95% non-Toriyama. And yes, when the original author doesn't create something, it isn't canon. Otherwise the whole "canon" concept becomes useless. Folken de Fanel 22:01, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't say that around Star Trek fans then, because under your defintion everything in DS9, Voyager, Enterprise, and the last 4 movies are not canon because they were created after Gene Roddenberry died. TJ Spyke 22:05, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Did Gene Roddenberry said that these things were canon ? Folken de Fanel 23:37, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure, but Paramount owns the Star Trek franchise and are the ones who decide what's canon. I have also never seen any fans not accept them as canon and the producers done a great job keeping them consistant. That what I am getting at for Dragon Ball GT, just because Toriyama didn't have much to do with it doesn't mean it should be considered less canon than ones he was deeply involved with. TJ Spyke 00:00, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

That's because the creator of Star Trek is dead. Toriyama isn't. If Toriyama died, Toei would most likley be able to do the same thing Paramount did to Star Trek.--KojiDude 00:02, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

lol...I cant believe ppl have argued so hard about this here. We'll end it here by disproving the "Only what original Author writes is Cannon". Ok here goes: 1) Superman movies (not only that but Superman returns <written by a NEW writter YEARS and blessed by DC comics> removed #3 and #4 from the official cannon. 2) Star Trek- Gene Rodenbary (or whatever his name) had constatly left matters of "cannon-non cannon" to Paramount even when alive. If Akira were to die today, then would it be considered cannon? The fact that someone were to argue "But he's still alive.............thus has nothing to do with Star Trek!!" makes no sense. 3) Jesus...ANY series for that matter. "LEgend of Zelda", the recent "Saint Seiya" changes <the new movies are considered CANON by the company and had 0% to do with the official writter> (killing the argument right there)

Also.........ppl say "Akira worked on GT" as if he showed up 1 day to the office for 20 minutes and left. The official "GT" book (that came out all those years ago in 97)and interviews later say how he literally spent months in the offices, important meetings and pretty much came up with the concept of the show himself (the space part, though he said the loved Goku turning into a kid again.........it completed the ark). - And to put "Dragonball" in a different universe then let's say..........EVERY SERIES EVER MADE......is just...wrong.

What else? Highlander 1 and 2 was created and directed by the same 2 guys. Yet Davis/Panzer said in "3" that "2 never happened". - What else? Jesus, there are endless arguments to this (I could write 2 books on it). Fortunately for some.............and UNfortunately for others.........GT is official. (just bad writting doesnt change it ..........and that's ignoring the great parts of GT <IE: Bebi fight, the episode when Piccolo dies, Super 17 start, Super Saiyan 4, Golden Ozaru being a fantastic idea, SSJ4 Gogeta being incredibly original, etc etc etc. THE END of the argument finally.

Oh my God someone finally figured it out. To the one (the fanboys and girls) that doesn't get it, Toriyama, the man that created DB has something to do with GT being canon AND offical. The man has OFFICALLY acknowledge GT as a canon part of the ANIME part of DB(yes we now that DB manga is the true source). However if you going off the manga then all the anime of DB in non canon(ALL OF IT).

But since you fanguys agree that that DBZ is canon than why not GT? Because its not a manga? Then the name Dragonball Z is not canon. Since DBGT is part of DB anime, hey why agrue? TJ has been right this whole time. When you fanboys and girls come to the rest of the world with info that Toriyama has not acknowledge GT, then hey GT non-canon but I have read way too many sources(books, magazines, interviews, and the internet) that GT is canon by the creator himself(go find and read on it, stop being lazy, stop arguing and look for it, trust me you will find it). Look for the facts and stop speculating on the OPINIONS of millions of DB fans that do not like GT and considers it non canon in their opinion. Don't be scared to tell them they are wrong, right TJ?

Also you wanna talk about plotholes? The biggest plothole in DB Anime history is not in DBGT, it in DBZ. The Garlic JR Saga. To those with the hardheads this is the Biggest Plothole Mistake in the anime(shoot its consider a dog on saga). So know you Dragonball FACTS before speaking about whats canon and whats not. talking about plotholes. read and watch DB, all of it and look for plothole. The most favorite DB anime DBZ has the biggest plothole and you nitpicking small ones on the show you don't like.(no offence to the ones who think it non canon but like it)

For those who argue about canon and non canon of DB have only watch some of it and not all and/or have gotten into it only a few years ago. Me, myself i have track, watch, and freaking studied DB for way too long so don't talk DB to me or agrue a fact that I looked up for years. Opinions mean nothing til you come with a fact and TJ and the person above has give many facts. You fans are only giving your own and other fans opinions. The thing that gets me is this saying" many fans consider it non-canon". WHO ARE YOU TO MAKE SOMETHING NON CANON WHEN YOU NEVER WROTE A DB STORY OTHER THAN A NON CANON FAN FICTION STORY? Thats the big kicker to me. You folk saying something is non because others (other than the writer and AT himself) say so. Why can't you young fans get it through you skull that even though Akira Toriyama didn't put it into an manga, it doesn't mean Anime wise that GT is not a canon and a offical part of DB? Again DB ANIME PART OF DB NOT MANGA.

As i said if you wanna go off the manga, then the Dragonball and Dragonball Z ANIME are also non canon. Because a lot of stuff in the show never even got put on manga paper let alone the thought of some of the fillers and fill in parts of sagas. Before coming at me with you replies of you opinions, you better think and find the facts before you bring it. And to final answer that question after going off the article to explain something, Yes Super Saiyan 4 is a canon Super Sayian level and transformation.

Heat P 04:10, 3 November 2006

I don't see how that benefits the article. The talk page is for discussing the article, not going on a long rant about continuity.--SUIT⁴² 05:29, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

YA like you said to me before it should have been put into a forum. just went a little crazy on writing and explain. Try to say on target next time Suit. You and Dai will set me straight soon.Heat P 06:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

i have a great picture of ss5 goku you know the famous picture i think we should make a section entitled fake fanmade supersaiyans in order to let people that dont know about af that any thing beyond ss4 is fake —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Big foot123456789 (talk • contribs) .

No. All we need to do is put a sentence in the first paragraph to state that. No sections are needed. It'll just draw trolls to the article.--KojiDude 18:17, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Or we can just direct our little unsigned friend to Dragon Ball AF. -- bulletproof ^3:16 18:25, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I forgot to mention, I took out the picture of LSSJ Broly (the one of him running with the quote). The picture was more or less useless, and kinda squeezed the paragraph making it look a little sloppy. We really only need one pic (as only one person uses it), and the full body shot is more or less perfect.--KojiDude 19:59, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I know this is irrelevant, but, could somebody explain to me how in the bloody hell that thing with the double entry section happened?--KojiDude 22:31, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that was me screwing up with the editing. That's the last time I watch tv while editing. Nemu 22:34, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Nope... That was my fault... That's the last time I smoke weed while editing. >_< -- bulletproof ^3:16 22:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

That's just the basic fair use rational for pictures. The fair use policy says to use a limited number of pictures for an article to illustrate it. The pictures should be illustrating the text. There's already a picture for that. It just isn't needed. Nemu 22:56, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Goku&Vegeta's SSJ4's are very different, so both of them should be shown. Maybe a picture with both of them together would work.--KojiDude 23:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The page is just designed to show what each form is like. People can look at Vegeta's page if they would like to see it. There only needs to be one example per form. Nemu 00:19, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Some guy keeps changing defined to sharper it isgetting really annoying

Added the section before reading that it had been suggested and rejected. I don't see a reason not to have it, as long as it's made clear that it's fake, since it seems to be a source of rumor even these days and this would help clarify it... but if people are REALLY serious about ignoring the AF myth in its entirety, please feel free to revert

--((Original Poster))

Moved, on suggestion, to the Dragon Ball AF page

--((Original Poster))

Just curious why SSJ5 redirects to this page instead of the DBAF page. Any takers? CPitt76 00:13, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I redirected it. Now it goes to AF.--Atomic-Super-Suit^{What Have I Done?!} 23:00, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't help but notice that the descriptions for the Super Saiyan forms sound like they were written by 12 year old fanboys. Not much extensive vocabulary is involved in this article, instead it says things like the "hair gets really spikey and sticks out in all directions"......ok..... well so doesn't the next form of Super Saiyan. The descriptions aren't very detailed either, they don't compare and contrast details between the different forms (e.g: Super Saiyan 2 body lightning is ALWAYS blue), they simply explain what they look like. I also believe that we should use manga as primary reference, because that is the original media of Dragonball, making it the most accurate. Majinvegeta

Why not the Daizenshuu as well?--Atomic-Super-Suit^{What Have I Done?!} 03:46, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

That is what I have been pushing for the whole time (even though I didn't mention it), That would probably be even better then the Manga reference. I tried Fixing the details and vocabulary, but Bulletproof reverted it. When I asked him why, he told me he knew that the pages had to be redone, but Daizenshuu and Manga qualify as "Independent research", which violates Wikipedia policies. That's not cool. That's the whole reason why the Daizenshuu is there, is to guide us so there isn't crappy descriptions like these.--Majinvegeta 18:54, 10 October 2006

Per WP:OR, no mentions on "non-canon" or "canon" are to be made in articles. Just keep that in mind when you rewrite articles. For example, instead of adding something like: It was then that Goku was able to transform into the non-canon Super Saiyan 4... Just leave it as: It was then that Goku was able to transform into Super Saiyan 4...-- bulletproof ^3:16 22:58, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

That makes sense.--Atomic-Super-Suit^{What Have I Done?!} 01:28, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

The descriptions do sound like a 12 year old wrote them

It says

"It has been speculated that, because Goten and Trunks take after their human halves (supposedly because of lack of a tail) they are weaker than pure Saiyans, and thus cannot transcend the level of Super Saiyan 2. This is most..."

Shouldn't this be edited as Gohan went to SSJ2 during his fight with Cell?

I think all that should be simply deleted.--Atomic-Suit-n-tie^{What Have I Done?!} 22:33, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I think this entire article has to be rewritten, a lot of this stuff reflect people's opinions (such as the thing that you stated about Goten and Trunks). "Speculation" has no place in these articles, that's why we have facts provided by the anime, Manga, Daizenshuu, and Toriyama himself. Majinvegeta

In the first Broly movie, doesn't Broly turn into a fake super-saiyan when the attacks Guko in the castle at night

No, that was Broly's Super Saiyan form. The hair was caused by the control device on his head. -- bulletproof ^3:16 01:39, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Wasn't this question asked before?--Atomic-Suit-n-tie^{What Have I Done?!} 02:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah... -- bulletproof ^3:16 02:52, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey but the requirements say missing 1 or 2 things leads you to be a fss ,so seeing as broly was not being able his full power when tranforming to ss wouldn't that force him to become a fss?

What happened to this part of the article? Broly's unique transformation was once on here, and even the DBZ games (notably Budokai 3) identified Broly's unique form as "Legendary Super Saiyan". Why is the Legendary Super Saiyan part of the article deleted?

"Legendary Super Saiyan" is not an official transformation, it is Broly's form when he is at his full power in Super Saiyan state. The Budokai games are flawed, just as they label "Kaioken" a transformation: it isn't one, it's a technique. But then again, neither is Giji Super Saiyan. Goku never used Giji Super Saiyan in the series (excluding the filler "Other World Tournament" Saga which happens to be non-canon). He didn't even use it against Freeza. Majinvegeta

Woh Woh Woh Woh Woh Woh Woh Woh Woh... Woh. Hold on there Majinvegeta "Legendary Super Saiyan" is an official transformation. The sixth daizenshuu goes so far as to name this stage directly as its own entity (literally naming it "densetsu no sûpâ saiya-jin" or "Legendary Super Saiyan"). -- bulletproof ^3:16 00:25, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah it is, so what happened to the section?--ASNT^{Contributions} 00:26, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

It's there... -- bulletproof ^3:16 00:27, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh yeah, it is.--ASNT^{Contributions} 00:28, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Bulletproof, you're looking at the TV editions weren't you? Those are so flawed, Legendary Super Saiyan is not a transformation, Just as the TV edition Daizenshuu's lable the "KaioKen" a transformation. The Dragonball World Book and Daizenshuu's 1 and 2 are the one's I'm talking about. Majinvegeta

Hold on Majinvegeta if you going to sit here and tell these people that the Legendary Super Saiyan is not a transformation then you are going to tell use that the Super Saiyan transformations of the other Saiyans are not ones either. Yes the Kaioken is a power-up. We know but The LSS state is a transformation but in the non canon movies as the movies are of a different timeline. Broly has his normal SS then he has his LSS. If you going to say its not then Goku's SS forms for example are just power-up of his original SS and not transformations. Do not say something is flawed because you don't seem to like it. If you wont accept the other Daizenshuu other than one and two then you are only given half the facts. Heat P, 3 November 2006

No. N. O. NO. What you just said makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Because Brolli had a variant of SSJ that was him at his maximum power, that somehow makes SSJ1, SSJ2, SSJ3, etc. NOT transformations? Your logic doesn't follow. In order for something to be a transformation it must be an actual change that is different enough from something's original state that one can consider the thing to have undergone a real change. "LSSJ" is NOT a transformation. "densetsu no supa saiya-jin" literally means "Super Saiyajin of Legend". It is a STATUS. It is a TITLE. What it is NOT is a unique transformation. It's just a variant of SSJ1, which is why it is a sub-category and not it's own thing. Saying that this is the case does not impact whether Goku's SSJ forms are transformations or not. The two have nothing to do with each other.

The ONLY thing that you said that makes sense is that you can't accept only some of the Daizenshuu. If you are going to accept one of them, then you should accept all of them. They only provide complete information when taken as a whole. That doesn't make the movies described in the Daizenshuu canon or in any way related to either the anime or the manga, considering they just plain don't fit into the timeline in most cases (there are a couple exceptions), but the Daizenshuu are there to be read in full, not in part.

Ultimately, however we are not supposed to be discussing canonicity on wikipedia, and we certainly aren't supposed to be deviating from the topic of the article on this talk page. Discuss the article, not the subject. The original question was "What happened to Broly's transformation?" That question has been answered. Broly's variant of SSJ is still there. End of discussion.

Daishokaioshin 12:54, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Nope sorry not end of discussion, you help open this can of worms. You have just made a big mistake in what you just said and I will quote you "In order for something to be a transformation it must be an actual change that is different enough from something's original state that one can consider the thing to have undergone a real change." Now if I am mistaken, how can a skinny guy just a little tall than Goku at one point, and then at the next moment power-up into a giant of a man with arms the size of a dog on mack truck and a body of a tank not be considered or count as a transformation? Man be real. Do you watch the movies or just listen to them? Go to the SS page and Broly's page and look at the pictures. There is a BIG difference in the look of Broly's normal, SS and LSS forms to consider it a transformation. But I see you will stick to your "Fact".

As i said and it is very "logic" that if you are going to call the "Super Saiyan Of Legend" a power-up of SS1 Broly then the other Saiyans's SS forms (SS2 and SS3) are just power-up as there is no really physical changes from the SS1 original state other than hair and aura. Only Super Saiyan 4 is a transformation by your own definition. But of course its non canon right?

Also If i am not mistaken bulletproof gave MV proof in Daizenshuu #6. TV edition or not, who are you to say something is flawed. So are you now the creator of DB, are you Akira Toryiama? Daizenshuu is a sources. Until you or MV give me and the others proof or a true sources that it not a transfromation, then it is. If a true sources say it is then it is. If you or MV find proof and I mean PROOF PROOF then my mind is changed. Dont give us a Webster's dictionary term on Transformation, it wont work.

Also the Article say "Legendary Super Saiyan". Someone ask a question under this topic, which was answered. However that was a question asked under a topic. I'm a old head, been around for a while, so if I am not mistaken any question, discussion, or debate(which we can't do here on Wikipedia right?) can be talked about, asked and/or answered under a topic, right? And the topic is Legendary Super Saiyan which is being discused. Heat P, 03 Novmember 2006

Also Dai I have a question for you. Are you going back on you own words about Broly's LSS form being a transformation? Just wondering because in the Archives 1 there is a Article call Legendary medium? and in it you yourself call it a transformation several times. So have you found a source, or are going by what MV said now? do not take it personal Again do not take it personal. It was just something i found and want to ask as not to keep going on the transformation discussion, and i like to know the source if there is one. Thats all. Heat P 06:26, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok look this site said you can edit any information that you feel is incorrect and I did that, checking the minor edit box and typing in a short editing summary the way I'm suppose to. A few times though, someone (probably the admins) keeps switching it back to what it was before. Ok, this is what I was trying to do: In the "Super Saiyan Levels", I wanted everyone to know that Broly in his Legendary form is STRONGER than the Super Saiyan 2 level but these idiots don't seem to think so. I've done strength calculations and I know for a fact that once he turns Legendary he can kill any Super Saiyan 2! You people keep underestimating his power and changing my CORRECT edits back to the WRONG way they were and I'm starting to get really fed up with it. For further clarification as to why I think this, just ask me and I will gladly explain and also someone please tell me WHO is changing my edits and WHY. Its really annoying. thanks >.<* —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jrapidfire (talk • contribs)

Stop with the personal attacks, I reverted it, because he is not. Also, you are using original information. It is not allowd, okay? Your edits aren't correct, because he never fought a ss 2. Not one at full power, if you know about DBZ, you'd know that Gohan got weaker during the peace. That's why he couldn't win as SS2, so stop changing it.--ASNT 05:07, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

You guys... this is a pointless argument. The levels in the article are not listed by strength but by chronological order. -- bulletproof ^3:16 22:40, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

And sign your comments Jrapidfire. -- bulletproof ^3:16 22:47, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

^{--for those of you who don't know what chronological means, it means they are listed in the order that they appeared.--KojiDude (Contributions) 22:53, 18 October 2006 (UTC)}

I smell a fanboy... -- bulletproof ^3:16 00:04, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

About the chronological order, shouldn't Legendary Super Saiyan be before Super Saiyan Full Power?--ASNT 01:34, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

The story of Movie 8 supposedly takes place a few days before the Cell Games. By then Gohan and Goku had exited the Room of Spirit and Time and were already Full Power Super Saiyans. So Legendary would be listed after Super Saiyan Full Power. -- bulletproof ^3:16 02:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Remember

Broly in a later movie faces off against gohan in his adult state who could go super saiyan 2, Gohan lost the fight and was saved by krillin, in the end to defeat broly it took a combined Kamehameha of two super saiyan 2's (Goku and Gohan) and young Super saiyan Goten

To the ones that says Gohan was a SS2 in movie 10 need to get their eyes check as to me Gohan didn't even try to go SS2 thinking he was stonger than last time. So thats why Goahn got beat so badly by Broly but if he would have went all out then that my friends could be a different story. But it can be evident that in the blast battle with Goten's help of course he could have pushed himself to that state to finish Broly because only Krillin knows if it was really Goku or not. All Goku's presents did was push Gohan again as he did with Cell. Look at the movie CLOSELY. Heat P, 3 November 2006

Just because your opinion is that Gohan wasn't using SSJ2 doesn't mean it is so. This is not a forum for discussing whether Gohan was in SSJ2, whether he needed help beating Broli, or anything else. We are only discussing the ARTICLE, and NOT what the article is ABOUT. Thanks.

Daishokaioshin 12:42, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry Dai it is not a opinion, it is a Fact Gohan DID NOT go Super Saiyan 2 on Broly. Look at the movie again. read the articles on the movie (both Japanese and English). It plain as day and clearly stated in most articles product on the movie that Gohan went SS, again Super Saiyan. But back to the topic before someone loss their mind.

This goes to the person at the top that said he done his calculations on the LSS and SS2. What calculations you done? What fact is there? If you wanna do a calculation, here one.

When Broly was defeated by Goku he used 4 SS powers and a Super Nameks powers combined, mind you weaken power (they where way below 50% of there power). So it can be said that Goku's power at that time was about the level of a SS2, maybe a little less.

Need more? Ok Cell games. When Gohan defeated the Cell Jr. The CJr where equal if not a little more powerful then a SS as they held off the other SS without a single scratch on them, now Gohan beat these guy with one chop, punch and/or kick to each one. Calculated, Gohan'SS2 powers at that time was that of a SS's power x3 or 4. So the LSS and SS2 possible could be equal to one another or one can be stronger than the other by a small margin, small. That is a possibility, not a fact, or a opinion, just a possibility. That may not make any sense to some, the calulation, but it does have you think doesn't it.

However as things go, it is unknown if Broly is stronger than a Super Sayian 2,3,or 4. That is a fact. You can compare all day but no one knows except the movie creators and Akria Toriyama himself. Wanna know, contact him and ask. Heat P. 03 November 2006

Perhaps you failed to understand what I said, so let me state it more clearly: We are NOT discussing the SUBJECT of this article, we are discussing the ARTICLE ITSELF. That and ONLY that is what a talk page is for. Do NOT continue this ranting ANY FURTHER please. I never saw the movie you were speaking of, and I don't care to. It doesn't MATTER whether Gohan was SSJ2 or not, because it doesn't impact the article, which we are supposed to be discussing.

Discuss the article, not what the article is about. Understand this time?

Daishokaioshin 23:37, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry Dai, it was a heat of the moment thing. Can't let that get to me. But just when someone say it a opinion when its a fact gets me. I can't take something personal but you can't either, do you understand that too?? you are getting upset yourself but again sorry for that my fault.

You are right Gohan going SS2 doesn't have much to do with the article but someone above brought it out and my dumb butt ran with it. I had to do it in my last statement for the calculation bit to help understand how this fella up top use a crazy calculation to say something only Toei ar Toriyama knows. I just used it different to show that calculations on Broly's strength can be his down side too making him equal or weaker than a SS2. But enough about that about. So let get back to the article.

It was answer that you may compare Broly to the other Saiyans but other than the fact of what he done to the SSs in his first two movies as Super Saiyans, the fact is you can never know what his powers are compared to with the other SS Level unless you can contact and ask Toei or Toriyama. Again Dai sorry for that stuff early.Heat P 06:21, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

YOu still seem to be ignoring the real facts, weather or not gohan was super saiyan or super saiyan 2 is just speculation, the fact is gohan was able to go super saiyan 2, broly was able to defeat gohan by himself, gohan with the combined power of goten and either the power of goku or the inspiration of him given to his sons.

Well to WHOEVER wrote that, Dai made it clear to me and i will make clear to you, Gohan going SS2 or if he can during the movie has nothing to do with the discussion. but i will say again to you. GO...BACK...AND...LOOK...AT...THE...MOVIE. there is no speculation, there is no opinion, it is a FACT about Gohan. If he did go SS2 then it would different story. So why you trying to hit up a debate over something ALREADY fixed with Facts?? SO drop it,Thank you!!! If you wanna talk about Gohan going SS2 in movie 10, create a new subject on that to discuss. Heat P 04:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Shut up, Bulletproof. I aint no fanboy I'm just stating what I believe is true and the most annoying part is that no matter how many different ways I state them, you people STILL dont listen! Are you guys friggin stupid?! And dont even get me started about how Legendary comes before a SS Full Power. Movie 10 SS Broly (w/ blonde hair) would be equal to that form while Legendary is FAR stronger and NOT just "a little stronger" than a SS2 making him close to a SS3. Sure the forms you put down are all in order of appearance but people are STILL gonna base them as the order of STRENGTH that they are since thats what it basically looks like anyway. but still I KNOW that ANY SS2 could NEVER hold a candle to a Legendary Super Saiyan! I mean CMON! Why would a guy with that term "LEGENDARY" be able to get beat so easily like he did in the movies?? Gee, I dont know..maybe cuz the creator had to betray his TRUE POTENTIAL so that the heroes could win just like they do in EVERY movie so that there can still be more episodes?! YES. Now do you understand what I'm saying?! Furthermore, I never said that Gohan went SS2 in Movie 10- how could he if he didnt have the lightning in his transformation? My calculations are NOT crazy so open your damn minds already and FACE THE TRUTH THAT I'M SPEAKING!

You need to stop basing things solely off the movies. I swear to God I'm so sick of the people that always do that. I could care less if you consider my subject to be "original information" because I KNOW its the TRUTH! I mean seriously who cares if he didn't fight a SSJ2 in the movies because remember in Movie 8 how SSJ Vegeta tried kicking him in the head while Broly was a SSJ? He didn't even feel it so what makes you think that a SSJ2 could hurt him once he goes LEGENDARY? Theres not much chance for them once he does because hes a lot stronger than any ordinary SSJ2 since Legendary is his SECOND transformation. Thats the unique type of power that his Legendary form really gives him. You see what I mean? Just like his UNRESTRICTED SSJ form is equivalent to "SSJ Full Power" but doesnt keep increasing. It takes a SSJ3 or Fusion to be able to actually kill Broly and don't count the movies where the creator had to betray his true potential so that the heros would win. that sucks because we all know he could've killed them all off in no time if it wasnt for those darn flukes. Like in Movie 8, Goku had to beg everyone for their power like some desperate little pus5y because Broly would've killed them all with ease if he didn't. Even if they all were SSJ2's he STILL could've taken them out since his power keeps growing while being in his Legendary form. He even SAID (in movie 8) he was getting stronger so stop underestimating his true power. In Movie 10, he had the heros right where he wanted them AGAIN and Kid Trunks's little blast distracted him making yet ANOTHER stupid cheap ending to a Broly movie where he got blown into the sun from the desperate triple kamehameha waves. And don't even get me started on "Bio Broly" that was the worst movie ever. Broly could never reach his full power with all that crap all over him it just slowed him down more making him look stupid. Keep in mind that even though all of his movies had cheap stupid endings, he still put up a hell of a fight throughout all of it and he wasnt even trying hard. You never really saw the full menace of Broly in his movies. You know it and I know it. And by the way I'm going to every DBZ related website who has made the mistake that a SSJ2 is stronger than Broly and correct them. Anyone who thinks this is full of bull****! KEEP IT THE WAY ITS SUPPOSE TO BE! BROLY IN HIS LEGENDARY FORM IS STRONGER THAN ANY SSJ2. It even says so in the new "Dragonball Z Budokai: Tenkaichi" Players Guide. In the Broly section it says: "Even a Super Saiyan 2 Goku isn't able to do much damage to Broly" and by this I mean in his LEGENDARY form only. go ahead and read it if you dont believe me. I hope you understood everything I'm trying to tell you and I won't give up until this error is CORRECTED! Thank you

(And tell me how to sign my comments if I didnt cuz Im new here- JRapidfire)

So you are the person that done the calulations???? boy WHAT CALULATION DID YOU DO??? please go and show us what mutiplying and dividing you done? Do not give use this fact thing you say you have. We need a True Fact and Source. You can not use DBZBT game players guide as a source. I did not say he was not stronger than SS2 or 3 or 4. I stated that using calulations can work in reverse too showing him being weaker too. Plus J you can't go personal on anyone call people stupid because call me one is a real insult to a true DB fan. And I did not solely use the movie. I went into the series to show you that calulating can work the other why on Broly. Goku my have asked for power but his power was well close to SS2(read the statements up top again). Also in movie 10 the reason Toei may not have let Gohan go SS2 was to give Broly a dominating role as every enemy in DB history has had to thrash the good guys around before being beat. You need to think and stop lashing out. I have ALL the movies, OVA's, manga, and every last Episode of all three series so i know the full menace of Broly in his movies as well as every menace in DB. You can not go of a game, or a players guide to give use you fact. We need a hard source for a hard fact about Broly. Not some crazy calulation you feel work. Again Show use and maybe we will agree to it but then i may show you how WEAK broly is to a full power SS2. but watch how you write or your statement my get removed.Heat P 10:20, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

again watch how you write and DO NOT USE ANY PROFANITY!!! and I will say sorry for my saying you said Gohan went SS2 that was my mistake. However having a form and using it is two different things.Heat P 10:23, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Why is Onio even in there? He is just a parody. He is not in the dragonball Z Continuity.

Onio being a Super Saiyan was just a joke in a parody. People who become SS as a joke in something that has nothing to do with DBZ except a few cameos (that conflict with the series' timeline by the way) don't need to be listed.--KojiDude ^{(Contributions)} 02:53, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree.

There is a mistake on the known users for this transformation state. FPSSJ allows the saiyan user to transform to super saiyan instantly without alot of unessesary energy lost due to powering up. It is shown by all saiyans who reached the super saiyan state could do this after mastering the transformation. This can be seen in episode free the future for Future Trunks, during the world tournament and the buu saga when Goten and Trunks fight as super saiyans, and by vegeta in the buu saga everytime he transforms.

Full powered Super Saiyan is also complete mastery of the unwanted effects of Super Saiyan. People forget that Super Saiyan provides behavioral and emotional unbalance and those obsicles are overcome when "full powered" Super Saiyan is reached, that is how Goku and Gohan were able to "act natural" (as Vegeta put it), while remaining Super Saiyan constantly when they exited the Room of Spirit and Time during the Cell saga. Majinvegeta

somthing that i have been finding odd, i have been searching up on some of the fusions after watching the end of GT and i am curious about gogeta, ive seen a page stating he is a super 4 but for some random reason has completely changed features, some people argueing that he is super saiyan 5 explaining why he looks so drastically different from 4. The confusing one is the one that says he is neither, i do know that in GT the fusion is never said to have a name and nor does it have a confirmed Super Saiyan level, so are there any official sources on this? I dont want oppinions on this, raging fans just screaming AF is fake which has nothing to do with this, or people going its 5 because he looks different, what i want is like an Toei statement, and if there is not then a heads up saying its not so i know what i am reading is bias fan based or official.

Ask a forum, not Wikipedia, please.--SUIT^42! 03:42, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Gogeta was only Super Saiyan 4, the official GT Perfect files state it. The difference in his hair color could mean numerous things, many people also believe that it is from the fusion. Majinvegeta

The official information on this is where?

I'm mimiking the person who originally asked this question (whoever it was) ......speculation. And whoever you are that asked this question, you won't get a Toriyama statement because he personally had nothing to do with the story of GT, GT was made by Toei Animation, not him. I think Toriyama could give two *poops* about Super Saiyan 4 and GT. Majinvegeta

Still, the question should have been asked on a forum, not Wikipedia. That's all I'll say...--SUIT⁴² 23:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

well it would be better asked here because what could be on wikipedia could actually be wrong, and majinvegeta does not seem knowledgeble or helpful

Speculations have no place in these articles as stated by Wikipedia themsleves. Yet there are many speculations riddled about this article. I think this entire article needs to be re-written, I don't find the wording of it the least bit entertianing or even in the slightest intellectually appealing.Majinvegeta

WP:OWN perhaps...?--SUIT⁴² 04:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Any way, how is there a lot of speculation, just how?--SUIT⁴² 04:57, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, first of all, your the one who removed the speculation bit out of the article about female Super Saiyans, but I found this one in the SS3 section:

• (There is also the possibility that Vegetto, the first of the fusion forms used by Goku and Vegeta, might have been capable of it, but the fusion form is believed to have never even bothered to go beyond Super Saiyan).

And this one in the SS2 Section:

• Although it can be assumed that whenever we saw Goku and Vegeta after their fight (when Vegeta becomes Majin Vegeta), they only use the second form as it is much more powerful and efficient for an enemy like Buu.

Also in the SS2: It might be said that turning into a Super Saiyan brings an individual closer to his base Saiyan instincts, and it stands to reason that a more powerful state would increase the intensity of these instincts.

There is no evidence to support these claims other then what is observed by anyone. There is no official documentation to state as much other then the "restless" feeling that Goku describes that Super Saiyan exhibits. Majinvegeta

The whole he could not be bothered to go super saiyan 3 and 2 is wrong, as stated in the animie, Vegetto did not go beyond super saiyan not because he "could not be bothered to", which is a poor way to describe it anywaym he did not go beyond a super saiyan because while in protara fusion they would not be able to revert from their super saiyan form as stated by the elder kai. alot of these describetions need to be ammended and repaired, just one of many examples

I completely agree about the "repairs" and "ammendments" that you talk about, that is what I've been pushing for all along, but every time I edit it, someone reverts it back to the older version. It's getting really annoying. Majinvegeta

Because the so called 'speculation' is evidenced by facts from the manga/anime. If you go before congress with evidence of a terrorist attack, would you get the response "That's just speculation."?--KojiDude ^{(Contributions)} 20:49, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Are you talking about something not in the above list? All of that is definitely speculation. Nemu 20:53, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The first thing is speculation, I agree with that, but the second isn't. Goku has 3 bangs when he's SS2, and when he fought Kid Buu that's how many he had. Both he and Vegeta also have electricity around themselves in the manga. The word 'assumed' just needs to be removed. The third thing is pretty obvious too, because Gohan went form peacful to saddistic in 2 seconds. The second part of the sentence just needs to be removed.--KojiDude ^{(Contributions)} 21:00, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Are mastered Super Saiyans (aka Full power) the only ones able to become level 2?

I think this is an unwritten rule, if it is correct, I believe that only Mastered Super Saiyans can ascend to level 2. That would explain why Goku, Gohan and vegeta were only able to ascend, no one else mastered Super Saiyan therefore did not ascend or just went to level 3. Vegeta had mastered it by the Buu saga.

Level 2? Level 3? What are you referring to? SSJ2 and SSJ3? Do you mean "Full Power Super Saiyajin" when you say "Mastered Super Saiyan"?

There is no "unwritten rule" about any of that. Vegeta is never shown using Full Power Super Saiyajin. He initially acquires SSJ2 because of the Majin enchantment releasing all restrictions on his power, enabling him to transform. That has nothing to do with Full Power SSJ.

Daishokaioshin 23:28, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

It is debatable if Vegeta aquired Super Saiyan 2 during the time before the Buu saga, even though he never shows it or directly states it, he does make slight indications that he did transform before his Majin power-up (in the Manga) when observing Goku fighting Yakon, and then again when he fought Goku. Mastered Super Saiyan is the true name of Full powered Super Saiyan according to the Daizenshuu. I argued the same thing Daishokaishin, about Majin being Vegeta's true first Super Saiyan 2 transformation, but but people pointed out to me certian quotes and evidence that suggested otherwise. Vegeta wasn't constantly Super Saiyan 2 when Majin, at first he was only level one. That explains why he had no electricity around him when we first see him, he doesn't get lightning until his first power-up against Goku..... But then again, since these are only indications, Majin could've been his first transformation to Super Saiyan 2. Majinvegeta

Either way, saying he used Full Power SSJ is not only speculation, but incorrect. He didn't go for an extended period of time in SSJ, so there was no way for him to acquire that upgrade to his base SSJ form. He didn't use it, so the speculation above about it being necessary for SSJ2 is false. It is also irrelevant to the article, unless the individual was trying to suggest we include Vegeta in the list of users. Since this wasn't specifically stated, however, I'm going to chalk this up to more people trying to use Wikipedia as a forum, until such time as the user deigns to correct me.

Daishokaioshin 01:46, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Full Power Super Saiyan is when a saiyan has fully mastered their super saiyan power, meaning they do not have to waste energy to transform, as stated by goku in the Cell saga when him and gohan were staying in their super saiyan forms. the effect of this is saiyans do not waste as much power while transformed and are able to instantly transform without unessesary power loss and long periods of powering up.

People forget that "full power Super Saiyan" is also when a Saiyan has overcome the the behavioral effects that Super Saiyan exhibits, like the enhanced aggression and the "restless" feeling that Goku talks about in volume 17 (Cell saga inside the Room of Spirit and Time). A full power Super Saiyan acts as he naturally would, which enables them to access their power more efficiently (like you said, power up easier, and not waste energy while being transformed.) Majinvegeta

So correct the definition of Full Power SSJ in the article, and be done with it. However, it is never specifically stated that Vegeta or anyone else beyond Goku and Gohan made use of this state, so we cannot use personal interpretations or speculation to decide someone other than those two used it. I believe that once the entry on Full Power SSJ or "Mastered SSJ", whatever you want to call it, has been corrected to fit your definition, this will be the end of this discussion, yes? Since it otherwise doesn't have anything to do with the article?

Daishokaioshin 11:42, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Well jeez, I wouldn't be complaining if I hadn't already tried to edit them, would I? I keep changing the discriptions to accurate info as stated in the Daizenshuu's, but people keep reverting it to this crappy version. Majinvegeta