Talk:Palestinian political violence/Archive 5

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Problematic title and lead

This article should really by Political violence in Palestine or Political violence in the State of Palestine. Political violence does not have a nationality, and even if the label were attributed in this manner, what would it mean? The community consensus as to how such things should be termed is clear from the category scheme for political violence, which is Category:Political violence by country, with this article falling under and presumably being the main article of Category:Political violence in the State of Palestine. The lead is also unclear and causes further problems. For a start it does not link to political violence, but instead outlines the page in terms of Palestinian nationalism. But that is misleading. Political violence can have all sorts of motivations, not least of which is political power. When Fatah fights Hamas, it is about power and that is also "Political violence in Palestine", but Palestinian nationalism is not what divides them. Or if there is political violence in Palestine by Bedouin or Druze who do not self-identify as Palestinian, or against them for reasons not associated with national identity, is that not to be included? The framing is not neutral and is functionally decrepit relative to outlining political violence by geography. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:02, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

I established a proper introduction at the front of the lead in this diff. The questions over the suitableness of the lead remain. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:26, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
And the cousin, Zionist political violence. Selfstudier (talk) 12:44, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
That's extra tricky, because it's been aligned with a political ideology and doesn't easily map onto any national polity, since it's both pre- and post-1948. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:15, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

I dont know; and the current lead reads: "acts of violence perpetrated for political ends *in the State of Palestine*". this might be confusing for some readers since most of the violence was perpetrated *outside* Palestine. (this is explained in the paragraphs that follow but still, the first one should be clearer). There are older version that I like better, like this one. (I picked it at random from the history) –Daveout(talk) 12:26, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Since the State of Palestine is admittedly a bit fuzzy around the edges in terms of actual political presence, I've turned the statement into an 'and/or' one. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:30, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

The scope of the article is not limited to Palestine. From the lead: "Attacks have taken place both within Israel and the Palestinian territories as well as internationally". So I don't support the title proposed above. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 14:52, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 2 April 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. The split proposal was not discussed at length, however there seems to also be a consensus against it. (closed by non-admin page mover) {{ping|ClydeFranklin}} (t/c) 22:49, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Palestinian political violence → Palestinian terrorism – Firstly, 'Palestinian terrorism' is the commonly accepted term to describe this type of violence. Therefore, it would be more appropriate to use it as the article's title. Secondly, using euphemisms such as 'political violence' instead of 'terrorism' may downplay the severity and impact of the violent acts committed by Palestinian individuals or groups. By using the term 'terrorism,' the article will accurately reflect the seriousness of the situation and the harm caused by these violent acts. It is important to accurately label and describe phenomena, especially when it concerns sensitive and controversial issues such as political violence. By using a more direct and specific term like 'Palestinian terrorism,' the article will be more informative and effective in communicating the subject matter to readers. Skovl (talk) 22:29, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

  • Oppose - obviously, as much as I would oppose Palestinian resistance as a title. Not one word in the above resembles anything related to our policy on WP:TITLEs, and it violates the requirement that descriptive titles be neutrally worded. nableezy - 22:33, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
    About be neutrally worded please read WP:NPOVNAME: the fact that a given description has effectively become the common name overrides concern that Wikipedia might appear as endorsing one side of an issue. Skovl (talk) 22:38, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
    Please read it yourself, common names is about names. "Palestinian terrorism" is not a name, it is a description, and the policy it falls under is WP:NDESC (In some cases a descriptive phrase (such as Restoration of the Everglades) is best as the title. These are often invented specifically for articles, and should reflect a neutral point of view, rather than suggesting any editor's opinions. Avoid judgmental and non-neutral words). As far as commonality, "Palestinian resistance" is about 5.5x more common in google books than "Palestinian terrorism". We instead use a neutral term, per WP:NDESC, to describe the subject. nableezy - 22:40, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
    While "Palestinian resistance" may be an appropriate term for a different article, it is not suitable for the topic at hand. This article specifically focuses on "Palestinian terrorism," which refers to politically motivated acts of violence committed by Palestinians. Skovl (talk) 22:52, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
    Also known as "Palestinian resistance". But thanks for telling us that this article, currently titled Palestinian political violence refers to politically motivated acts of violence committed by Palestinians. One might think hey, what set of words describe politically motivated acts of violence? Might political violence work? And what adjective would be useful to specify that it is Palestinians that commit these acts of politically motivated violence? Maybe Palestinian? nableezy - 23:49, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose - again, obviously. Are you going to suggest that Zionist political violence → Zionist terrorism, too? Huldra (talk) 23:53, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
  • Split; it seems to me that we could have separate articles on politically motivated violence and instances of unequivocal terrorism. BD2412 T 00:07, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
    Terror would be a subset of political violence, and this article is at 72 kB or readable prose, so why would it be split? nableezy - 00:19, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Nableezy said it well. Splitting is also a bad idea as it will just create another source of argument. Zerotalk 01:28, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
Oppose: per WP:NPOV, and specifically WP:TERRORIST, obviously. It is a quintessential WP:TERRORIST application actually. As noted above, the current title is a compromise between two value-laden terms, resistance and terrorism. Here's the Ngrams, which shows that, if anything, "resistance" is dominant, and if one were to move the page anywhere, it would be to that, not the proposed. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:34, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I will read more about WP:TITLEs, but Nableezy argued WP:NDESC and says that "Palestinian terrorism" is not a name. It is used to describe actions. It seems reasonable to follow WP:NDESC. Per Zero, splitting the topic seems no better. Javan009 (talk) 23:31, 3 April 2023 (UTC) Sorry about this post. I now realize that it was a mistake.[1] Javan009 (talk) 14:48, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
Oppose. ‘Political violence’ is at worst no less accurate but also likely to cause NPOV difficulties.
  1. …the commonly accepted term—source?
  2. may downplay the severity and impact of the violent acts—how? ‘Violence’ includes violence at all levels of severity.
  3. It is important to accurately label and describe phenomena—yes, but ‘terrorism’ isn’t obviously more accurate.
Docentation (talk) 16:13, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

PFLP Leader is Inaccurate

in the description for PLFP, it says it was led by Abu Ali Mustafa, when it would be more factually accurate to say it was founded and led by George Habash - Mustafa only formally led the group for a year until his assassination Castroonthemoon (talk) 15:18, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

To much biased article, it's look like written by Fox News correspondent or Israeli right wing editor.

Please preserve authencity of Wikipedia & include both parties perspective. 202.47.36.141 (talk) 00:26, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Rename to "Palestinian Resistance"

Ukrainian resistance during the Russian invasion of Ukraine is okay, why not the same for Palestine? 2A02:3030:812:7B0:1:0:E0AD:21D5 (talk) 14:59, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

As you can see above, one likes to rename it terrorism and you would like instead resistance. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, so it goes. Double standards much?. Just have to put up with it, I'm afraid, unless a majority of sources start to report things differently. Selfstudier (talk) 15:11, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
ukrain is a sovereign state, Palestine is not a sovereign state thus its "right to resist" is debatable
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_to_resist
(and i see now that it need to be update it as well) 79.177.5.13 (talk) 04:19, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Can you add an image

File:Flickr - Israel Defense Forces - Posters of Suicide Bombers Hang in Classroom in Tul Karem.jpg shows a classroom in Tul Karem showing "famous" suiciders as martyrs. Can It be added to the article? 192.114.1.66 (talk) 10:30, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

seek the destruction of israel

Besides being a talking point, why is this in the lead? And why is Dovidroth edit-warring over it? nableezy - 19:45, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Is it not lead worthy? Do Hamas, PIJ and other groups not seek the destruction of the Zionist entity and its replacement with a Palestinian state? It appears very reasonable and lead worthy to mention. Indeed what is the aim of Palestinian political violence according to research? Homerethegreat (talk) 20:42, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
Furthermore, the phrase has appeared for some time. Homerethegreat (talk) 20:45, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
Because it is a partisan way of framing the issue. Should it say "support the restoration of the rights of the indigenous Palestinian Arabs in their homeland"? No, because that is also a partisan way of framing it. It can say something like "supports the replacement of Israel with a Palestinian Arab state". But right now it is just pushing Israeli talking points as though that were a neutral way of presenting it. nableezy - 20:51, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
The phrase "Some perpetrators of these acts support the replacement of Israel with a Palestinian Arab state" carries an amusingly peaceful tone. This seems inappropriate for a page discussing political violence. Marokwitz (talk) 21:11, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
The dismantling of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Arab state. I cannot seriously believe that anybody believes "seeks the destruction of Israel" is anything besides a pro-Israel PR talking point. nableezy - 21:43, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
I absolutely think that it needs to be noted in the lead that many of those who perpetrate Palestinian political violence have the goal to destroy Israel. I am open to discussing the exact terminology. Dovidroth (talk) 09:40, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
I just did that? The dismantling of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Arab state. says the same without the partisan framing. nableezy - 22:25, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
Sounds ok to me. Dovidroth (talk) 13:39, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
Implemented. Dovidroth (talk) 05:50, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
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