Talk:Long-billed wren (New Zealand)

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn Columbianmammoth (talk) 21:36, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(non-admin closure)

Long-billed wren (New Zealand) → New Zealand long-billed wren – The word order "New Zealand long-billed wren" represents a more customary approach to disambiguating names. For example, see New Zealand rock wren, European robin, and American robin. For all three of these species, the shortened names "rock wren" or "robin" are the most common vernacular names in their native range. Of course, an encyclopedia like Wikipedia needs to disambiguate. The three examples I give show that it's customary to include a geographical identifier like "New Zealand," "European," or "American" at the beginning of the name as part of the name, rather than after the name in parenthesis. Columbianmammoth (talk) 00:35, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. Why not just use the binomial? YorkshireExpat (talk) 15:40, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Hear, hear. In the other example cases, the species is commonly called by the geographically qualified name in reliable sources. There is no evidence that this is the case for the wren. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:15, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Comment. You're right about that. Perhaps we should hold off on this move for now. I'm the last person who would want to be responsible for a Wikipedia invention. Still, the actual "reliable sources" you are referring to are limited. Checklist-of-Birds.pdf (nzbirdsonline.org.nz) uses both "rock wren" and "long-billed wren" without the geographical qualifiers. Xenicus gilviventris (New Zealand Rockwren) (iucnredlist.org) and NZ wrens, Sapayoa, asities, broadbills, pittas – IOC World Bird List (worldbirdnames.org) do use the geographically qualified name for the "New Zealand rock wren," but New Zealand's "long-billed wren" is excluded from these databases. Perhaps the name "New Zealand long-billed wren" will gain popularity in the future if more people internationally cared about it.

  But I digress. Let's stick to "Long-billed wren (New Zealand)" for now. Columbianmammoth (talk) 18:45, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, thanks for your comment. The name "long-billed wren" appears to be widely used and recognized for this species. See Checklist-of-Birds.pdf (nzbirdsonline.org.nz) and Rock wren | Pīwauwau | New Zealand Birds Online (nzbirdsonline.org.nz) as authoritative examples, and Long billed wren - New Zealand Bird of the Week - YouTube as another interesting example.

Actually, Checklist-of-Birds.pdf (nzbirdsonline.org.nz) and dozens of Wikipedia pages for individual species like this one refer to New Zealand birds that became extinct after Polynesian settlement and before European settlement by their common names.

For these reasons, even the current name "Long-billed wren (New Zealand)" is preferable over the scientific name by the standards of WP:UCRN. Columbianmammoth (talk) 18:21, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose the proposed move at least. I personally prefer Latin names for extinct NZ species for which the actual vernacular Polynesian name has long been lost or is disputed. If we're required to refer to the bird in an international context, then "New Zealand long-billed wren" would work; the reason the NZ sources cited above refer to it simply as "long-billed wren" is there's never any possibility of confusion with the Brazilian bird: they're written for a NZ audience, so not much use when determining what the geographical qualifier would be. But because "New Zealand long-billed wren" is a phrase almost never used, it can't be called the common name, so under WP:FAUNA I think the binomial might be be better as an unambiguous article title. Either is preferable to the current state. —Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 01:10, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Hi, thanks for your comment. I now support the current name, but I can't close this discussion until a week has passed. As you and other commenters have pointed out, the geographically qualified name "New Zealand long-billed wren" appears to be my invention. Perhaps this will change in the future, but I'm content with "Long-billed wren (New Zealand)" for now.

  I would strongly oppose changing the article title to the scientific name. Checklist-of-Birds.pdf (nzbirdsonline.org.nz) and dozens of Wikipedia pages for individual species like this one refer to New Zealand birds that became extinct after Polynesian settlement and before European settlement by their common names.

  Here is a list of the aforementioned dozens of Wikipedia pages: North Island giant moa, South Island giant moa, bush moa, eastern moa, broad-billed moa, heavy-footed moa, Mantell's moa, crested moa, upland moa, New Zealand goose, New Zealand swan, Finsch's duck, Chatham duck, Scarlett's duck, New Zealand musk duck, New Zealand stiff-tailed duck, adzebill, snipe-rail, Hodgens' waterhen, New Zealand coot, New Zealand owlet-nightjar, Scarlett's shearwater, Waitaha penguin, Eyles's harrier, Haast's eagle, Chatham kākā, North Island stout-legged wren, South Island stout-legged wren, long-billed wren (New Zealand), New Zealand raven, and Chatham raven. An honorable mention goes to Chatham coot and Imber's petrel, which survived into historic times, although there are no known historic records. I should also mention Hawkins's rail and North Island takahē, which are known from historic observations, but the only physical specimens come from paleontology.

  In other words, if you strongly prefer the scientific name for species known only from paleontology, I highly recommend that you make a mass move request for all of the aforementioned pages rather than targeting the "Long-billed wren (New Zealand)" page alone. However, I expect that you'll encounter strong opposition due to WP:UCRN. Columbianmammoth (talk) 05:50, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding your comment that you "now support the current name" – please note that procedurally, you would be allowed to close this request as "withdrawn" now if you wish, since no one has supported the proposal (see WP:RMCI, which says "a move request proposer may close their own move request as withdrawn ... if opposition is unanimous"). Of course, that would not prevent someone else from submitting a different RM request if they choose to do that. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 00:33, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(non-admin closure)