Talk:Kainé

GA Review

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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Kainé/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Shooterwalker (talk · contribs) 19:11, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]


  • I'll grab this one. Look for a proper review in the next few days. Shooterwalker (talk) 19:11, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Appearances
      • It always helps to state the obvious and explain the character's overall role in the game (e.g.: a companion character who joins the player's party).
      • "the two sides ended up in conflict." -> "the two sides come into conflict."
      • "Kainé ultimately faces Hook with the game's protagonist, who kills Hook and encourages her to live" -> "Kainé ultimately kills Hook with the help of the game's protagonist, who encourages her to live."
      • You switch verb tenses from past to present between the first and second paragraph. You should choose one verb tense and stick with it.
      • "help him search for a cure to the Black Scrawl appearing among the Replicants and infecting the young girl Yonah." -> "The protagonist asks Kainé to help find a cure to the Black Scrawl that is infecting Replicants, including the young girl Yonah."
      • "She becomes a loyal ally and "sword" to the protagonist, shares a bickering relationship with the talking book Grimoire Weiss, and forms a sibling relationship with the young Emil who suffers a self-imposed isolation due to his powers and later discrimination when his body is transformed into a skeleton-like form." -> This is a mouthful. Is it possible to break it up into smaller sentences, or simplify it?
      • "She briefly sacrifices herself by allowing Emil to petrify her to seal away a powerful Shade when the Gestalt leader Shadowlord kidnaps Yonah, being released five years later and helping the protagonist and Emil hunt down the Shadowlord." -> This one too.
      • "picking up after she is freed from the seal" -> I don't see the connection to the rest of the sentence. Subsequent playthroughs give the player more context about the overall story, but how this effects Kainé doesn't come into play here. Unless I'm missing something.
      • I'm also losing the timeline, going from subsequent playthroughs back to the ending. Maybe start with the normal ending first, and then talk about alternate endings on subsequent playthroughs after? The alternate endings seem important enough to Kainé that it would help to make their conditions very clear.
    • Related media and crossovers
      • "and through a confrontation with the plant-like Sleeping Beauty computer system ends up restoring the protagonist's human form" -> "and restores the protagonist's human form after a confrontation with the plant-like Sleeping Beauty computer system."
      • "Kainé was considered" -> This would be more clear if it wasn't passive voice. Who did this?
    • Creation and design
      • "male heroine" is sort of a paradox and an interesting piece of information. Is there more context for what the staff member meant?
      • Add a paragraph before the ending scenario in Grimoire Nier, just because it really is a break in the topic. If the paragraph feels too short, it couldn't hurt to briefly restate the main difference in the story.
      • "Kainé's character design was by Korean illustrator D.K." -> "Korean illustrator D.K. was responsible for Kainé's character design."
      • "playing off" -> "her interaction with"
      • "with the first draft's swearing." -> "with much more swearing in their first draft."
    • Reception
      • "In a popularity poll..." -> The reader needs clarification. Kainé is a character in Nier, but the poll is about Automata, so in which game is she a favorite?
      • "Alan Wen of Video Games Chronicle positively noted Kainé among the cast, positively" -> you use "positively" twice here.
      • "Jose Torres, writing for RPG Site, took some time to grow accustomed to Kainé's redesign but eventually compared it positively to her concept art." -> "Jose Torres, writing for RPG Site, praised Kainé's redesign while also finding it the most jarring character change in the remaster."
      • The last two comments in this paragraph feel a bit more critical. It might help to throw in a transition word to frame that change in the paragraph.
      • "Alana Hagues of RPGFan, in an article on queer representation in the Nier games in relation to her own coming out, highlighted Kainé for her support of other marginalised characters in the narrative. Her major criticism was a trophy in the remaster for looking up Kainé's skirt, which she described as undermining the positive representation." -> "Alana Hagues of RPGFan highlighted Kainé for her relatable representation of queerness, and her support of other marginalized characters in the narrative. However, she also felt that this was undermined by an in-game achievement in the remaster for looking up Kainé's skirt."
    That covers most of it. We'll need a second pass, along with a look at the lead. But this is well on its way to becoming a GA. Shooterwalker (talk) 23:41, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Shooterwalker: Did my best with all your points above (NG+ starting point's kinda important as we're only playing through the really sad second half of the game, not the opening lighter bit, so tried adjusting it to be a little clearer). As to the "male heroine" bit, there doesn't seem to be any more context. I double-checked the Japanese, retranslated its individual parts, and it seems like it was a vague request Yoko interpreted this way, but there much elaboration. And unlike Tintor2, I don't believe in over-elaborating beyond the source and searching for context in untrustorwhy sites, so it's difficult to go beyond this without misrepresentation. --ProtoDrake (talk) 11:18, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      Thanks for the clarification on the quote. For sure, let's stick with what we know instead of speculating. Let me do another pass, starting with the lead.
      • Lead
      • "A leading character of Nier and prominent in its related media," -> "She is featured prominently across various Nier-related media, especially in Nier as a player companion and leading character." (this is a good place to clarify her role in the game.)
      • "... she accompanies" -> "In Nier, she accompanies"
      • The next few comments are for flow, with fewer long sentences with a clearer topic per sentence.
      • "Kainé was created Yoko Taro, director and writer of Nier, as an unconventional female-identifying lead, " -> This will flow better with a full stop.
      • "with writer Sawako Natori, and novelist Jun Eishima contributing to her backstory. She was designed by Korean illustrator D.K," -> "Writer Sawako Natori conceived of her story, with novelist Jun Eishima expanding on it, and Korean illustrator D.K. creating her character design."
      • "and originally had a less provocative design. For the 2021 remaster, her design was updated by Akihiko Yoshida." -> "She was later re-imagined for the 2021 Nier remaster, with a more provocative design created by Akihiko Yoshida." (or drop the provocative part if I'm getting the timeline wrong.)
      • Body
      • You should turn this opening sentence into two seperate sentences, for clarity. (e.g.: Kainé appears prominently in Nier as a companion character to the player protagonist.")
      • "Her also interacts" -> "She also interacts"
      • "who suffers a self-imposed isolation due to his powers and later discrimination when his body is transformed into a skeleton-like form" -> this adds a lot to the sentence and makes it difficult to follow. I think we can simplify his character summary into a few words, since we want to focus more on Kaine. But if you really feel this other character is important, it deserves its own sentence for readability.
      • I like how you handled the endings. This is a lot clearer now.
      • "The Grimoire Nier scenario was included in playable form in the remaster as a combination of fan service and a new addition possible due to a larger budget" -> "The Grimoire Nier scenario was included in the remaster due to the game's larger budget, and a request from producer Yosuke Saito for more fan service."
      • "it was intended" -> avoid passive voice and be clear on who is doing what. e.g." the studio intended" or "Saito intended" or "Taro intended"
      Everything else is looking good. This should hopefully wrap things up. Shooterwalker (talk) 17:19, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • @Shooterwalker: Did my best with your comments above. And if you want to double-check the Grimoire Nier interview, this Google Doc translation is available. Seems accurate. --ProtoDrake (talk) 17:47, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        Thanks for addressing the last few issues. This looks great to me, and the article is definitely GA quality. Shooterwalker (talk) 15:46, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by BorgQueen (talk) 00:13, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(
  • Comment or view
  • Article history
)

Improved to Good Article status by ProtoDrake (talk). Nominated by Onegreatjoke (talk) at 01:10, 16 February 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Kainé; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: Yes - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith
  • Interesting: Yes
  • Other problems: No - ?
QPQ: Done.

Overall: Article and hook both look great, I can verify the English-language sources but AGF on the hook source since it's in Japanese. My only worry is that the hook might be bit unclear to people who don't know that Kaine is a videogame character. The hook isn't bad it's just that the wording of "a female staff member" feels clunky out of context. BuySomeApples (talk) 08:38, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@BuySomeApples and ProtoDrake: How does this sound?
ALT0a ... that Kainé from the video game series Nier was created in response to a female staff member's vague wish for a "male heroine"?
Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 04:53, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I like it @Narutolovehinata5: approving ALT0a unless @ProtoDrake: has any objections. BuySomeApples (talk) 08:42, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have no objections. And I can confirm (having translated and double-checked it for the GAR) the JP source backs up this claim. --ProtoDrake (talk) 10:44, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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