Talk:Jewish exodus from the Muslim world

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Withdrawn by nominator; clear consensus against. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 17:51, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jewish exodus from the Muslim world → Jewish expulsion and flight from the Muslim world – "Expulsion and flight" is a neutral description of what occurred, while the current title is a euphemism. It would also be WP:CONSISTENT with 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight and the RM that moved it to that title from "1948 Palestinian exodus" - the reasons for that move apply equally to this. BilledMammal (talk) 04:33, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 11:40, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject International relations has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 11:41, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Support, exodus has an Iron Age biblical meaning that is not appropriate here. Abductive (reasoning) 13:02, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not an argument, the circumstances are distinct and consistency is therefore not required. For a start, the opening for this article says "migrated, fled, or were expelled" whereas the other says "fled from their homes or were expelled" and the other was in 1948 whereas the events here took place over a long period of time. Therefore, if there should be a new title, it should include the word migration and a date range needs to be established. What needs to be determined by reference to reliable sources is the relevant %'s , migrated, fled, expelled and when did these occur rather than an obvious POV push to match the other title with spurious argumentation. Selfstudier (talk) 13:15, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose the title should be as neutral as possible and inline with how the RS describe the events (such as the "Jewish migration from the Arab world" and the "emigration of the Jews from the Arab World"). While those sourced common names are about the Arab world, I see no reason why they shouldn't apply to the "Muslim world". The various reasons for the migration should be discussed in each relevant section. M.Bitton (talk) 13:53, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - I do not think "expulsion and flight" is an NPOV way to describe the event. Yes, Morris 2008 says "emigrated, were intimidated into flight, or were expelled." But Pappe 2004 and 2022 AFAICS just calls that "immigration" without the "intimidated" or "expelled" part. And I just checked Mark Tessler's 2009 book, pp. 309-311:

While the arrival of these Jews from the Arab world played a critical role in shaping the character and evolution of Israeli society after 1948, the argument that their dislocation was comparable to that of the Palestinians is controversial and problematic. Israeli propagandists stressed the difficulties that confronted Jews in Arab lands and suggested that they had been forced to leave their homes. ... In fact, however, such statements give a distorted impression of the complex and varied situation of the Jews in Arab countries and of the diverse reasons that led most to leave.

Scholarly Israeli and Jewish sources, as well as others, offer a more realistic appraisal. ... Further, though Jewish insecurity was both real and justified in some Arab countries, it was far less significant in others, and, in any event, it was only one of the reasons that Jews chose to leave the Arab world at this time. Immigration to Israel was sometimes the result of a desire to participate in the building of the Jewish state. This motivation was most intense in the more traditional and religious Jewish communities, often located in rural areas. In these cases, and undoubtedly some others, it was the attraction of Israel, rather than a desire to flee persecution, that led Jews to leave the Arab countries in which they lived.

Socioeconomic factors may have been an even more important consideration ... Moreover, not only did an uncertain economic future lead some Jews to think about leaving, but the economic advantages and favoritism Jews had enjoyed in the past created resentment among the majority, a consideration that may also have encouraged Jewish emigration but which had nothing to do with the Arab-Jewish conflict in Palestine.

In some instances, cultural factors provided yet another stimulus to Jewish emigration ... In fact, many of these Jews emigrated to Europe rather than to Israel.

Finally, post-1948 Zionist efforts to promote Jewish emigration appear to have been an important factor in at least a few instances ... In any event, when Zionist involvement is added to the socioeconomic, cultural, and other factors that helped to stimulate Jewish departures, it becomes clear that it is highly oversimplified, and in many ways misleading, to equate the flight of Palestine's Arabs with the immigration to Israel of Jews from Arab countries.

The take away is that we should not equate the Nakba with Jewish emigration from Arab countries post-1948. Levivich (talk) 17:46, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose the false equivalence behind this proposal. As in Levivich's quotation, it is simply not true that the two mass population movements were similar. Zero^talk 00:05, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per Levivich and Zero. Very obvious attempt at a moral equivalence, and one that the sources do not support. I would support Jewish migration from the Muslim world. The claim of consistency with a completely different topic is one that fails even the most cursory glances. This was not a population largely chased out by militias/armed forces. There is no consistency required between completely different topics. Even the order of words here betrays the POV of the proposal, there are very few instances of expulsions of Jews from any of the Muslim/Arab states. And the claim that the reasons for that move apply equally to this is so obviously specious that not even an attempt at justifying the claim is made. In fact, the quote from the Tessler brought by Levivich attributes such an argument to "Israeli propagandists". nableezy - 00:12, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. "Flight" carries an inappropriate connotation, considering that not all Jews who left Muslim lands "fled" them. The current title is appropriate. Zanahary (talk) 19:02, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. This is a false equivalent as Zero suggests. Hogo-2020 (talk) 06:16, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose I'm not sure this move makes much more sense than calling large-scale Jewish migration from the Russian Empire (in response to, among other things, pogroms and discrimination) circa 1900 "flight and expulsion of Jews from Russia". (t · c) buidhe 09:49, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose Why would article titles on two seperate concepts need to be consistent? What an utterly ridiculous and intellectually dishonest argument. This is so obviously a WP:POINTY proposal designed to advance a certain POV. AusLondonder (talk) 16:48, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose as factually incorrect. Per Talk:Jewish exodus from the Muslim world/Archive 3#Expulsions?, I have been looking to verify the use of the term "expulsions" for the departure of Jews across all the Arab and Muslim countries for a decade without success. Across the entire Arab and Muslim world, only the 1956–1957 exodus and expulsions from Egypt (post-Suez Crisis purge of the Mutamassirun) appears to have included a small number of expulsions of Jews (alongside a large number of Europeans), at least some of whom would not have been Egyptian citizens. There is no evidence of expulsions from any other Arab or Muslim country, despite some propagandistic claims to the contrary. Onceinawhile (talk) 17:47, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]