Talk:James Harden/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Harden's agent has been at FAC for a while with little commentary. See Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Rob Pelinka/archive1.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:57, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

I think we should move this article so it is just called James Harden. Ice (talk) 18:53, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. WP:PT suggests that "James Harden" should be the basketball player's page name (this article had over 20 times the number of hits as the rarely-viewed James Harden (politician). We need consensus to make the move, so what are people thoughts? Jrcla2 (talk) 17:12, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I am going to change this article to include James Harden's nickname "The Beard." A previous entry to reversed under the basis that "personal sources are not allowed." That logic is faulty because there is no official source for nicknames nor is there any way to make a nickname "official."

If you look at other basketball players' wiki pages, Dennis Rodman's nickname "The Worm" is mentioned, as is Michael Jordan's "Air Jordan" nickname, Wilt Chamberlain's "Stilt" nickname. etc etc etc.

If James Harden nickname is not allowed, then whoever removes it needs to remove Jordan's, Olajuwon's, Earvin "Magic" Johnson, and make the same argument on those wiki pages.

Not true. See http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2011-04-28-423902442_x.htm for Ibaka's nickname for example.—Chris!_c/t 02:02, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Jeff Latzke AP Sports Writer is not an official source of nicknames. Such a thing does not exist. The writer is passing on information he was given by other writers, broadcasters, and players. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmurdock21 (talk • contribs) 02:11, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Right, but he reports nicknames that are well established, meaning that those are verifiable and real. The same can't be said here.—Chris!_c/t 02:15, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

That is not correct. It is not uncommon for a writer to label an athlete with a positive or derogatory nickname never used before based on recent actions or performances. Based on that rationale, it would be okay to include a once used derogatory nickname that was included in an AP article. On the flip side, a common knowledge nickname may be disqualified from inclusion based on the lack of a "source."

This logic does not yield accurate wiki information.

The subject on nicknames needs to be better defined because inconsistent treatment is given to different wiki pages.--Jmurdock21 (talk) 02:40, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

So you yield accurate information?—Chris!_c/t 02:45, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

No less than whoever decided to include "The Worm" and "Dennis the Menace" on Dennis Rodman's page. Whoever included those nicknames in his article did so under the exact same premise that I used.

Once again, inconsistent treatment. The main counterpoint to my argument is "those athlete's nicknames are more well known, so they don't need official sources" or "people have seen/heard them called that enough times that it is common knowledge."

My argument to that is, that is subjective and does not satisfy as an answer to why 2 identical situations are treated differently. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmurdock21 (talk • contribs) 02:53, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Just go search for Dennis Rodman's nickname. I bet it can be found it in news article. But you can't for Harden's nickname because it is created by you or some random fans.—Chris!_c/t 03:02, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually yes I can, and I will if that's the requirement. My argument is a sportswriter calling James Harden "The Beard" IS NOT, NOR SHOULD BE considered an official source. An AP writer is not acceptable source of athlete nicknames. We're going round in circles. But once again I point out

1) There is no official source for nicknames. The very nature of nicknames is unofficial and if you could officially source a nickname, then by definition, it would no longer be a nickname.

2) The "official source" criteria has not been met on several other athlete pages. The rebuttal to that seems to be, "their nicknames are well known." That is subjective and should not be acceptable.

3) The subject of nicknames is not clearly defined and many editors are putting stringent criteria on what nicknames are acceptable without being able to explain what the criteria is. Criteria should be easily determinable and not subjective based on a certain players perceived popularity.--Jmurdock21 (talk) 03:13, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Again:

1) We don't need official sources. We need unofficial sources to verify that nicknames exist and are actually used. 2) "Their nicknames are well known" because they are well established by sources. 3) Criteria is simple. No source = should not be in an article —Chris!_c/t 03:18, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. All content in Wikipedia needs to be verifiable and is subject to content guidelines. If it can't be verified, it does not belong, period.—Bagumba (talk) 03:21, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Okay, then can we please define what is acceptable and what isn't?

What is a source? Why is the source considered or not considered acceptable? How many times must someone be called by their "unofficial nickname" before it is considered acceptable.

Lastly, WHY ARE OTHER ATHLETES NOT HELD TO THIS SAME STANDARD? Answers of "just because" or answers that involve your opinion of how popular Player A or Player B is, is NOT acceptable.

It wouldn't be acceptable in research, academia, an article for The Economist' and it shouldn't be acceptable here. All criteria of items that must be sourced should be clear and measurable, and they are not.--Jmurdock21 (talk) 03:33, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

In terms of sources, it should be a mainstream source with editorial standards - a newspaper, a magazine, an ESPN website, etc. We shouldn't be using some random person's blog, or a message board post, because people can use such media to coin their own nicknames on the spot and try to force them into popular use. Of course, even if something is mentioned in a mainstream source, we need to use editorial judgment. Sometimes, those sources can coin their own nicknames, so we should consider how the nickname is used in context. If the writer says something like, "Harden is popularly called 'The Beard'.." then that would be an appropriate source. Zagalejo^^^ 03:49, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

I certainly understand your point and where you are coming from. I respectfully disagree because I contend that James Harden indeed HAS been referred to by that nickname in a number of "legitimate" publications by a number of journalists. However, I admittedly did not take the time to research every instance or publication to prove that is his nickname. But to do so would be unreasonable, and I've argued that other athletes' pages were not held to that burden of proof and it would be unfair to hold this page to a burden of proof that other pages are not. Furthermore, I do not believe simply listing a mainstream source of editorial standards suffices as a legitimate source for nicknames. As I've argued, an official source does not exist. I've also argued why a mainstream source of editorial standards SHOULD NOT be considered acceptable. It is not uncommon for a writer of a major publication to give a nickname to an athlete that has never been used before based on recent performances. For example, a writer for USA Today or ESPN may call James Harden, "Mr. Clutch" after a dominate performance, or "Mr. Choke" after a bad one. Sports writers are far from objective, and there are many that have questionable sources or questionable expertise. As you point out, we have to use some judgement in this area. I feel that James Harden being referred to as "The Beard" by a number of journalists, sportscasters, in print and on television, thousands of items of clothing sold that reference "The Beard," as well as every Oklahoma City Thunder playoff game in 2012 has made reference to "The Beard" as James Harden's nickname should satisfy the burden of judgement and common sense.--Jmurdock21 (talk) 21:09, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

A lot of the sources referring to "The Beard" are referring to the beard itself, not using it as a nickname. It is plausible that some sources do use "The Beard" as a nickname. But we can't go forward without something specific to look at. You can't say, "Nothing is verifiable, so let's just do what we feel like." Zagalejo^^^ 23:41, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Whether you think mainstream sources are legitimate or not is a matter of opinions. According to policy, we cannot use primary sources (your judgment would be an example of primary source). Only reliable, published secondary sources should be used (mainstream source would be an example of secondary source). So if "The Beard" is used in many sources like you said, then you should have no problem showing them.—Chris!_c/t 22:43, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

We aren't always consistent enforcing these rules. That is definitely true. Wikipedia is chaotic; we can only try our best. (We're not being paid to do this stuff; we're volunteers.) If I see a dubious nickname, I will try to remove it. But there's lot of stuff that's been sitting around for years that I wouldn't notice unless someone else brought it to my attention. Zagalejo^^^ 03:54, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

WP:RS provides additional guidance on identifying reliable sources. Be aware that "other stuff exists" is not always the best argument, and needs to be judged on a per case basis. That being said, I do hope you are not implying that Jordan, Olajuwon, Johnson, and Rodman have nicknames that are not used in verifiable sources. Ideally, every sentence would have a citation; realistically, WP:V only requires sentences that have been challenged or are likely to be challenged to be cited. If you have some sources for Harden that you are unsure of, you can present them here for discussion.—Bagumba (talk) 04:32, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I do contend that Jordan's, Rodman's, nicknames are not used in verifiable sources because I argue there is no verifiable source for nicknames. There is no definite point in time where we can point to a nickname as becoming verifiable. It's something that the community of fans, writers, broadcasters, players, etc give to someone and we, as a whole, accept it as official. Since the community as a whole gives, and accepts nicknames, I do not believe any one single author, writer, or article can be used as a reputable or verifiable source. Some judgment and common sense have to be used. I believe the name is widespread and common enough that is meets that burden of proof.--Jmurdock21 (talk) 21:28, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

On the subject of "official" sources, it should be noted that the Official NBA Encyclopedia does list a number of nicknames, as do the old player registers. Those wouldn't help in the case of Harden, but they should be considered useful sources for other players' nicknames. Zagalejo^^^ 23:25, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

If the nickname is in a reliable source, it is verifiable that it was used. That is indisputable. It is reasonable to believe that people have referred to Jordan as "Air Jordan" because sources can be shown as evidence to any reader, whether or not they are an NBA fan. Your point of contention might be how widespread that nickname is used and whether or not it belongs in the lead or just a mention in the body. For that we rely on guidance from sources that might say they are often referred to by that name, or based on due weight of it's prevalence in sources. I'm sure there are lots of nicknames that are verifiable but aren't used that often. basketball-reference.com seems to have better editorial control over not listing fringe nicknames. You often use the term "official", but there does not seem to be consensus on what that means.—Bagumba (talk) 23:47, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm deleting this information due to that fact that it's almost completely irrelevant. These accounts aren't moderated by Harden himself or any recognized official NBA staff. I wouldn't bother trying to argue against this due to the twitter page not having a certified check. The account is clearly an average fan as it contains insults aimed at numerous players that Harden respects. As for the T-shirt's and such, that seems to be fit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.204.229.144 (talk) 02:16, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

A newer picture of Harden would be nice. –DangerousJXD (talk) 21:32, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Somebody add one please. I would but I ain't to good at that sort of thing at the moment. —DangerousJXD (talk) 08:43, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

They're not a necessity and, can often be biased or written not from a neutral point of view. And, unless discussed in great depth like LBJ's, they are not really that useful. DaHuzyBru (talk) 10:03, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

You just opened my eyes a bit. Not the first time. Thanks for that. --DangerousJXD (talk) 11:10, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

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The last bit under Personal life reads "...the bearded profile of James Harden in various of styles and techniques." so the word various should be changed to "a variety" 66.214.131.110 (talk) 04:57, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Done. DaHuzyBru (talk) 05:29, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm sure winning the MVP at the NBA Players Awards is the biggest accomplishment of his career, why shouldn't it be under his achievements? AwesomeDude5415 (talk) 04:57, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

@AwesomeDude5415: As User:DangerousJXD pointed out, NBA Player's MVP does not meet the threshold for pro basketball highlights per Wikipedia:NBASTYLE and more specifically, this list of highlights. DaHuzyBru (talk) 05:03, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

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"He became the first player to have those numbers in a game since Wilt Chamberlain had 53 points, 32 rebounds and 14 assists on March 18, 1968.[60]"

The particular reference does not state anything of this kind.

Jimouri (talk) 09:26, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

It does actually. Down the bottom of the game report of said reference, there is a section called "HARDEN BIG NIGHT", and under it states "Harden's big game made him the first player to have at least 33 points, 17 rebounds and 14 assists in a game since Chamberlain had 53 points, 32 rebounds and 14 assists for Philadelphia against the Lakers on March 18, 1968, according to statistics provided by the Rockets from the Elias Sports Bureau." DaHuzyBru (talk) 09:47, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

The NBA also just posted about it on their Facebook page. DaHuzyBru (talk) 14:05, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

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Noob here, so sorry if I mess up.

I feel the statement: "On July 8, 2017, Harden signed a four-year, $228 million contract extension with the Rockets—the richest contract in NBA history." is very misleading.

The $228 million contract is a total of six years. [1] Maomaodoudou (talk) 04:39, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

@Maomaodoudou: Adjustments made. Cheers. DaHuzyBru (talk) 04:51, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

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Change shooting guard to point guard Jmorgan117 (talk) 04:16, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The Houston Rocket's site only lists his position as "guard" and sports reporting seems to alternate between 2 guard and shooting guard. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 05:12, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

It was already in prose that he moved to PG last season. I went ahead and updated the infobox.—Bagumba (talk) 05:44, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

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I want to update the wiki about james harden's injury and to improve statistics Sunnybob (talk) 22:06, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

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James is right. One should love everyone. China is composed of a lot of Chinese people, all deserving of love. In fact, the Chinese government should love their citizens a little more, and let those in Hong Kong do their thing, as they've done for a long time, and not rule with an iron fist. Sowff (talk) 08:45, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Maybe China can also reveal what happened to the true successor of the Dalai Lama, too. Sowff (talk) 08:46, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

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The below sentence which concludes the "2019-20 season" section should be removed as it is untrue: turnovers are not one of the official stats considered in quadruple-doubles (the only stats considered are points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks, and this is according to the sourced Wikipedia section "Quadruple-double" on the "Double-double (basketball)" page); therefore he did not record a quadruple-double in this game. On March 7th 2020, in a 99-108 loss to the Charlotte Hornets, Harden got his first career quadruple-double (only 6th in NBA History) with 30 points, 10 rebounds, 14 assists and 10 turnovers. He shot 2-11 for three. 2601:152:4501:1F70:5196:8523:FC28:23E2 (talk) 22:50, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

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Change the image please, I want to see a better photo for Harden Shar-Man2334 (talk) 09:31, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

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I suggest to remove a paragraph about the 2019-20 Harden's season which says "On March 7th 2020, in a 99-108 loss to the Charlotte Hornets, Harden got his first career quadruple-double (only 6th in NBA History) with 30 points, 10 rebounds, 14 assists and 10 turnovers. He shot 2-11 for three." because turnovers doesn't count for quadruple-doubles because turnovers are a negative stat. Mirko.loza (talk) 21:59, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

 Done but for a different reason; WP:NOTSTATS RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 00:34, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

What was wrong with his reason? Sajiky (talk) 02:41, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Not on the nets anymore bye bye change his team already he is on the 76ers

This article needs to be more concise. Or paragraphs broken up at the very least.

Do we really need to list his stats for every single game of his career?

I started to break up the second paragraph on his '18-'19 season. Separating the breakdowns of his season games (and deleting some), then making a new one listing the records, and important milestones he reached that year. But my phone doesn't handle the editor very well, so didn't get it done.

I'd suggest taking out all the games he played that are there mainly to recognize some record or milestone he reached. Unless it's a game record he set during said game, or a significant game otherwise. Then putting all the records and milestones reached for that season together into a separate paragraph.

Should make for a more concise readable article. I may do it myself if I'm ever looking at wiki on a pc. Sajiky (talk) 02:37, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Agree. This is common WP:RECENTISM with star players. An indivdual 50- or 60-point game, or player of the week honors are fairly routine for Harden. Even the "Nth player to do X, Y and Z" are often trivial, and sound repetitious when constantly listed. I'm OK with people adding them, as long as a periodic reality check is done weeks or months later to remove what becomes trivial in hindsight.—Bagumba (talk) 03:17, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

I get that. But too much of it makes it difficult to read and get relevant information.

What I'm seeing here is a lot of games listed where he say became the 6th player to get 2000 assists. Yes, that's a big deal, but I don't think a description of the game involved is needed. I'm suggesting removing those, and then putting all his accomplishments for that season (especially career and season ones, as opposed to individual game records) in one paragraph by itself. As it is now, you get a mention of say the career 2k assists while talking about one game, then a mention of him hitting a different milestone that season after describing several more big games etc.

Even if it is deemed that all those games are relevant (they aren't), grouping records and milestones for that year separate from all the big games, makes sense.

I'm not knocking Harden or his accomplishments. I like watching him play. I'm critical of the article itself as very difficult to read and get relevant information from.

Sometimes less is more. But at the very very least the paragraphs need to be broken up into smaller ones, and organized better. Sajiky (talk) 04:44, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

I don't have much room to talk about being concise, lol. It's not my forte either. But I do know what makes an easy read. Sajiky (talk) 04:46, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

I agree. When I said they were "routine for Harden" erlier, I meant like "ho-hum", it gets boring to mention them all and should be summarized better (and sometimes just removed).—Bagumba (talk) 06:27, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

He has been traded to the Nets on Jan 13, 2021 in a blockbuster trade. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:582:8600:6290:112D:A4BA:36BF:FAEC (talk) 00:27, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

This page needs to be updated, considering that James Harden was just traded to the Brooklyn Nets — Preceding unsigned comment added by P8ck3rs127 (talk • contribs) 01:16, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

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change James Edward Harden Jr. (born August 26, 1989) is an American professional basketball player for the Houston Rockets of the National Basketball Association (NBA). to James Edward Harden Jr. (born August 26, 1989) is an American professional basketball player for the Brooklyn Nets of the National Basketball Association (NBA). Vjayam07 (talk) 03:59, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

 Already done – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:52, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

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Change James Harden's team to the Philadelphia 76ixers Imthatguypal (talk) 18:23, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: we are awaiting an official announcement from the teams involved before making this change. Mannysoloway (talk) 18:28, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

If the trade was confirmed by ESPN Why is it anonymous Hazzaazza (talk) 23:11, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Change his team 2603:9001:6806:2954:1889:A576:FC89:4F82 (talk) 23:47, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Pls give us edit request to James Harden the trade has recently been confirmed on tv and pls stop semi protecteing it even if it’s not been confirmed by the teams isn’t it a bit dumb just to get the teams request about it than an true source so plz THE TRADE IS OFFICIAL SO PLEASE let them edit the thing STOP BEING OVERPROTECTIVE ABOUT A DANG TRADE — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaydenstyy (talk • contribs) 00:33, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

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He signed with the Philadelphia 76ers. Hauchie1111 (talk) 01:41, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: See the notice at the top of the page. – Jonesey95 (talk) 02:08, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

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Can’t wear 13 with sixers retired jersey number heard he was going with 1 2603:6011:5705:790C:9801:6555:735D:2783 (talk) 04:29, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Also, changes need reliable sources. --Ferien (talk) 08:35, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

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Year is wrong for his latest trade. 92.178.115.70 (talk) 18:49, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

 Done Cannolis (talk) 19:59, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

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10 time all star, not 9 Omar78966 (talk) 05:01, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

 Already done VictorTorres2002 (talk) 06:04, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

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change "On March 10, in a game against the Nets, Harden made his 2,561st career three-pointer to pass" to "On March 10, in a 129-100 blowout loss against the Nets, Harden made his 2,561st career three-pointer to pass" Moofikk (talk) 00:50, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. That seems like unnecessary detail and editorializing. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:07, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

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James Harden’s position is incorrect. As it should be a Shooting Guard instead of a Point Guard. I understand he has played Point Guard in the past, but his teammate Tyrese Maxey is the Point Guard of the team. I would suggest putting Shooting Guard after Point Guard. So it should look like this: “Shooting Guard/Point Guard”. Harden’s true position is even a Shooting Guard. That’s what he started his career as and majority of it. Slattboyjakey (talk) 09:10, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ––FormalDude (talk) 21:28, 13 September 2022 (UTC)