Talk:Heimdall

Geirrendour

Removed name "Geirrendour" here and in other articles as I can't find any trace of this form.

I have removed mention of "Norse society" as the ending indicates an intended Danish setting, not a Norse setting. I might have change it to "Scandinavian society", but that suggests a geographic limitation on the extent of the three races founded by Heimdall that probably wasn't thought about one way or the other by those who wrote or listened to such stories.

Removed information that Heimdall was a "light" god and "moon" god as can find no trace of either. He was a "white" god, but that may not be the same as a "light" god. "Moon god" is a strange POV identification for a god who lives at the end of the rainbow. If someone provide a source, then it is probably worth including, simply as an odd hypothesis.

There are a lot of poor links to this article.

Some just link back to Heimdall while others link to entries that give no more information than does the Heimdall entry. That is annoying to anyone who clicks on them. Such sub-stubs might belong in a mythological dictionary but I don't think such sub-stubs belong in any encyclopedia.

I'll wait about a week, but unless someone objects, I'm going to start changing these short Norse myth sub-stubs to REDIRECTs and emove the links to themfrom Heimdall and from other articles as I find them.

Jallan 00:37, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

this is almost a copy of this url.

http://www.thorshof.org/zheimdall.htm i think wiki should provide additional info before this can be considered wiki content. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.10.25.60 (talk • contribs) 14:38, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hallinskíði

"Heimdall's nickname Hallinskíði ("The Literal Bent Stick") also appears as a kenning for "ram", perhaps referring to the bent horns on a ram's head."

The name might also refer to the Gjallarhorn which may have been what is known today as the Bukkehorn, an ancient Norwegian instrument made from the curved horn of a ram or goat, useful for communication and signaling as well as frightening away wild animals while herding sheep. If I or someone else can provide a source verifying this association it would make an interesting addition to the article. Cerdic 16:09, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Coming from the hometown of Henrik Ibsen, Skien, many years ago I stumbled upon a book (no longer in my posession) where Heimdallr is associated with an older (pre-viking era) deity known as Skiða. Skiða was in this book associated to a horse cult. It would be interesting if anyone could substantiate this information. --Xact (talk) 22:45, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Skíði" (also the germanic-scandianvian variations) is from the same family word as my romanian "găteje" or greek "caduceus". It means stick (or pole/branch/twig/wreath) of wood. Heimdallr is Hermes/Mercury, folks. Check the common characteristics: rooster and messenger/herald of the gods. Bigshotnews 01:16, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Burtgang

According to the Japanese wikipedia Heimdall's sword was called Burtgang, however there are no sources for this and searches have turned up very little. Anyone who is alittle more knowledgeable on the subject care to comment? ブルドガング —Preceding unsigned comment added by 諸行無常 (talk • contribs) 07:02, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Heimdall's sword was not called Burtgang, so I encourage anyone who edits the Japanese wikipedia to delete this information as fast as possible. –Holt T•C 18:40, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- I would like to know the reason why User:Holt is so bombastic about this? Bortgang make sense in Norwegian. Bortgang in Norwegian give the meaning 'to die', literally: 'to go away'... It is still in use. This discourse on the Asatru points at two important questions: - 1) Is Asatru to be taken seriously as a living spirituality, albeit in various processes of reconstruction - in regard of re-encountering the oriental sources/influences of the Asatru (a.k.a. faith of Asia) - and in regard of the re-occurence of shamanic practices (i.e. entheogenic medicine) that has been supressed for centuries? - 2) In stead of saying that Heimdall's sword is not called Bortgang. It would be correct to say there are little or none known written sources telling that Heimdalls sword is called Bortgang. The question is regarding to what extent do written accounts have supremacy over what might be of oral transmissions. Is it not true that the old pre-christian spirituality of Scandinavia have survived among a variety of peoples of the east described already by Snorri Sturluson and evolved to this day among the Sakhya and Bön, the Tuvanese shamans and others unknown or unbound by the occidental epistemology. How oriental traditions are rendering the Norse spirituality is of uttermost interest as it should be beyond doubt that the Norse religion/shamanism/spirituality may provide a very fascinating field of research that may deconstruct the east-west dichotomy. --Xact (talk) 00:40, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the user above you was overzealous in saying to undo "as fast as possible" that edit, but are you saying that asians have followed asatru in some kind of unbroken chain, in any degree? I would like to know where asians have followed asatru at all period; sourcing of that would be highly interesting to me as I would likely be want to throw such a convinced statement aside as ludicrous. 4.242.174.238 (talk) 10:30, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Just so we're clear, Xact's rant above is complete and total nonsense (trolling?), and Holt was quite right to call for the immediate removal of misinformation. :bloodofox: (talk) 23:02, 1 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

-dall

The main article states the unknown origin of the affix "dall" in the "Heimdall" name. In some central-norwegian dialects, "dall" or "dallj" usually means a worker or a even a slave or a lazy man of the countryside. This in addition to also meaning "a good portion of" butter (as in "smaer-dallj") or a decent portion of anything else related to cooking. The word is still being used by elders in parts of Norway.

An older meaning of the word can also be referring to a bowl with a lid on it, as suggested by for instance Bokmålsordboka (a norwegian web dictionary).

The meaning of -dallr I thought was of not so much dispute, as the word is still in use in Norway: 'å dolle'... which means to make beautiful or valuable. It is etymologically linked to english 'doll'. In spite of traditional understanding I believe -dall to have some connotation to valley (norwegian 'dal'), as it seems plausible to associate the meaning of dallr (beautiful) with the beauty of the valley. Heimdallr is thus simply meaning the beautifying spirit of origin, of home.. I associate the meaning of Heimdallr to the etruskan (?) Lares, being the deity of home, or locality per se.--Xact (talk) 23:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xact (talk • contribs) 23:01, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The icelandic language thus contains the word "dallur". —Preceding unsigned comment added by KibyNykraft1976 (talk • contribs) 23:02, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

While all this is interesting, simply have Wikipedia's policies on original research in mind. You are of course more than welcome to find reliable sources that count these etymologies as plausible explanations, and add that information to the article, properly sourced. –Holt (T•C) 23:12, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Grimm thinks the name has something to do with the heavens, pine-trees and mountains, implying that Heimdallr was originally a god of wooded mountain-tops (which links to Perkwunos rather directly). But Grimm is also aware that this is only speculation. There is no clear interpretation for the name. --dab (𒁳) 12:02, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please move to Old Norse Heimdallr

Would someone please move this article to the Old Norse version (Heimdallr) rather than the current arbitrary choice between the two anglicizations (Heimdall, Heimdal)? :bloodofox: (talk) 15:27, 1 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, if no-one objects I'll move it later this week. Haukur (talk) 00:05, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's been more than a month and no objections so I moved it. Haukur (talk) 20:28, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"Heimdallr" is no more "Old Norse" than "Heimdall." The -r suffix is a nominative case declension and has no meaning outside the context of a sentence. guppyfinsoup (talk/contribs) 07:30, 3 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Recent Rewrite Status

I have recently rewritten this article and created or rewritten a few related to it (Gjallarhorn, Nine Mothers of Heimdallr, Himinbjörg, Heimdalargaldr) from scratch. Here's what the article currently needs:

  1. A 'Theories and Interpetations' section mentioning the major theories on the god (the Yggdrasill connection, the ram connections)
  2. More in depth discussion in the etymology section

And likely some careful copyediting. Rígsþula also badly needs some well-referenced love (rewrite, anyone?). Enjoy! :bloodofox: (talk) 22:19, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Whitest of the Gods

If there's no reliable source asserting that one of Heimdall's titles include "Whitest of the Gods" I suggest removal of this line. There's a lot of recent activity related to citation tags being added/removed. I suspect this title may have been added only because of fan outrage at the casting of a black actor for Marvel Comic's film version of Thor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.66.17.115 (talk) 05:57, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You have therefore not read the article. Go back and ctrl + f "whitest of the gods". You will then find multiple citations, including discussion on the matter. The lead section of the article is a summary of its contents (Wikipedia:Manual of Style (lead section)). Said Marvel comics film controversy seems to have resulted from some sort of dubious joke on the part of the film makers. :bloodofox: (talk) 06:20, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Possible typos in translation

Henry Adams Bellows translation: 

   Himingbjorg is the eight, and Heimdall there
   O'er men hold sway, it is said;
   In his well-built house does the warder of heaven
   The good mead gladly drink.[16]

Was the usage of "eight" and "sway" as opposed to the correct "eighth" and "sways" in the source or is it an error we have made when copying it here? --Khajidha (talk) 11:30, 23 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Khajidha: — Good eye. I've checked the translation and corrected it. :bloodofox: (talk) 19:09, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Original text

Would anyone be up for putting the real texts into the article? CecilWard (talk) 15:36, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear, are you requesting the normalized Old Norse for the stanzas quoted in the article? :bloodofox: (talk) 16:11, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Whitest of the gods

People keep tripping over this so we should try to provide more and clearer information. It's very clear that 'hvítastr' means "whitest" - the color of wheat and linen. But the connotations of describing someone as 'white' are different in the Old Norse context than they usually are in modern English. In English, 'white' is typically a racial designation. In Old Norse literature, white is the color of aristocratic beauty. I'll see about finding references that go into this. Haukur (talk) 21:07, 1 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 27 July 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. per discussion consensus. This was a hard one. We have, on one hand, the fact that more robust and good scholarly sources more often use the more traditional spelling. And it is true that google results are likely flawed, given that more traditional sources are so often left out. On the other side, we have COMMONNAME, naturalness, recognizability, and that this is the English language wikipedia, so we call Deutschland "Germany", Nippon "Japan", and, apparently, Nilfheimr "Nilfheim." It appears, from the discussion participants who have responded in past 4 weeks (and 2 relists, mass advertisements, etc), that the English spelling is what most editors prefer. Remember, we can always revisit this down the road. And another road worth considering is to make a broader discussion about all of these norse pages, trying to unify the style. Or trying to get consensus on a MOS entry. But as a closer of this particular discussion, I must operate by the evident consensus. Which, here, is in favor of the move. (non-admin closure) — Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 21:33, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Heimdallr → Heimdall – Per WP:COMMONNAME. We should be using English not Old Norse.

Google results:
  • "Heimdall": 2,220,000
  • "Heimdallr": 408,000
  • "Heimdallur": 115,000
  • "Heimdal" brings up 3,970,000 results, but they're mostly related to places and companies.
Google Scholar results for English only:
  • "Heimdall": 2,080
  • "Heimdallr": 734
  • "Heimdallur": 44
  • "Heimdal" brings up 16,600 results, but it's mostly in the names of the authors.

Britannica uses Heimdall. MClay1 (talk) 03:39, 27 July 2021 (UTC)— Relisted. 2pou (talk) 17:38, 5 August 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 23:52, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To expand on that, they use common English versions for all the gods, as well as mentioning the Old Norse spelling. MClay1 (talk) 04:45, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Question has consistency with other articles been checked? In ictu oculi (talk) 15:53, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Appears to be the most commonly used name in English-language reliable sources.--Yaksar (let's chat) 04:53, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Google stats are misleading: Sources like Simek's Handbook of Northern Mythology don't even appear. Many of those Google hits are likely referring to the Marvel films and related media, not the deity. It's common for academic treatment of these entities to use the non-anglicized form. I don't see the point of dropping the nominative -r in this case. :bloodofox: (talk) 05:27, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Well, the -r is just a case marker which plays no role in English grammar (uses syntax instead). The problem with retaining case markers is that you get mixed constructions like Heimdallr's instead of the more logical Heimdall's. OTOH, we tend to keep Latin case markers in names, like in Julius Caesar and Marcus Aurelius, and for Marcus, there is the possible alternative form Mark.--Berig (talk) 07:21, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Except for Thor and Odin, the Norse gods are commonly referred to in English works on Norse mythology and religion by their Old Norse names, including the -r on Heimdallr's name. I just checked two recent works, Christopher Abram's Myths of the Pagan North (Continuum, 2011) and John Lindow's Old Norse Mythology (Oxford, 2021); the former anglicizes Thor and Odin but not others (Heimdallr, also Njörðr, more of a mouthful), the latter anglicizes none of the names (Þórr, Óðinn, Heimdallr, Njǫrðr, though I had to hunt down the last, he's not in the index). Even though, as Berig says, it means we have strictly incorrect forms like "Heimdallr's", we stick English possessive endings on names from other inflected languages—"Caesar's", "Apollo's", and it's the convention in the field to use the Old Norse names rather than anglicize by omitting either diacritics or the -r or adopt modern Icelandic -ur. When I see "Heimdall" or "Balder" I think of the Marvel characters. Yngvadottir (talk) 08:08, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • The Marvel characters are named after the mythological characters. They didn't create new names – they used the common English names. MClay1 (talk) 04:45, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • No, they used anglicisations that, except for Thor and Odin, are not commonly used in scholarly works. (The extreme is the dwarf or troll Geirrodur, whose name is based on the giant Geirrøðr, but Hela is also not the form of Hel's name used in scholarly works. And I'm talking about survey works, not articles published in specialist journals.) Kirby was wonderful, and I suppose Stan Lee deserves credit too <g>, but the Marvel versions are in many cases quite different, and I actually find it useful to have two separate spelling conventions so that I know who someone is referring to. I checked in case in Hemdallr's case, common scholarly usage had changed; it hasn't. Yngvadottir (talk) 07:04, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • WP:COMMONNAME does not require the common name to come solely from scholarly sources. Many reliable sources use the anglicisations, and since this is English Wikipedia, not Old Norse Wikipedia, that's what makes the most sense. Most readers are not scholars and using foreign language spellings (especially with foreign letters such as in some of the other article titles that should also change) makes the articles difficult to read. The anglicisations fit the Recognizability and Naturalness criteria for article titles. The mythological characters have been adapted into many works besides Marvel – we shouldn't be choosing a spelling that is deliberately different just to differentiate them. Hela is the exception in Marvel because "Hel" is too similar to "Hell", but that doesn't matter here. MClay1 (talk) 14:54, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'd go further. The Marvel characters are not named after the mythological characters. They are the same character, being used in two different types of sources. The Marvel characters are cultural depictions of the Norse gods, similar to Cultural depictions of John F. Kennedy.--Khajidha (talk) 17:40, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, if both Yngvadottir and Bloodofox oppose this there are very good reasons to do so. These two editors are among our experts on this.--Berig (talk) 08:20, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Clear common name in English-language sources. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:26, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 16:35, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, Heimdall is the common name. JIP | Talk 01:18, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, the English-language version should obviously be used. Ichthyovenator (talk) 18:24, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. This is the English Wikipedia, and if the vast majority of sources are using "Heimdall", we should reflect that. Sean Stephens (talk) 03:58, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Random House and Collins, Encyclopedia of Ancient Deities, Dictionary of Gods and Goddesses also use Heimdall. WP:USEENGLISH Redtigerxyz Talk 13:16, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

— Relisted to gain a more clear consensus given conflicting policies and sources. We want the outcome to be clear and robust. Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 23:56, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
— advertised at WikiProject Mythology 23:56, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
— advertised at WikiProject Religion 23:56, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

@Jallan, Cerdic, Xact, Bigshotnews, Holt, KibyNykraft1976, Dbachmann, Haukurth, Guppyfinsoup, Khajidha, and CecilWard: Pinging past participants on the talk page to see if we can get some more opinions after the relistings. MClay1 (talk) 13:06, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support per common name.--Khajidha (talk) 13:14, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The better the source is, the more likely it is to use Heimdallr. Many of the Google scholar hits for Heimdall are for other things than the god. Of the first page of results, all but one result is for something else. Haukur (talk) 13:15, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Old Norse pronunciation of "Heimdallr"

What's the source for the word-final "r" being pronounced as a voiced alveolar retracted sibilant? WP Ludicer (talk) 08:45, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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