Talk:Happy Together (song)

The Wikipedia article being discussed is about the Turtles' recording of Happy Together. What is relevant here is the key in which it was performed, not the key of first "publication" of the song. The article is not about printed sheet music, it's about a particular recording of the song. In the context of this article, it doesn't matter what key the song was originally published in, even if we could determine that. As far as that goes, the reference to a sheet music copy that can be purchased at Musicnotes.com doesn't seem like a reliable source for the key of first publication. It's worth noting that that version can be purchased in various keys, including F# minor.

The only reliable reference for the key of the recording is the recording itself. I haven't found any other sources on the web that identify the key of the recording, although maybe someone else can. I think it's a shame that the article should state incorrectly that the song is in E minor when it clearly is not, simply because there's an irrelevant "reference" out there on the web. Anyone who has access to the recording and a pitch reference can tell that the song is in F# minor, it's not a matter for debate. Michael.H.Holmes (talk) 21:07, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

One more comment: I'd be happier to see the "Composition" section of this article deleted, rather than leaving the incorrect key and vocal range information in there. Multiple editors have made the claim that the song is in F# minor for a simple reason: the song is in F# minor! Let's at least delete the incorrect information, even if you are unwilling to trust the multiple people who have listened to the song and determined the actual key. Michael.H.Holmes (talk) 21:37, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've found an online source to corroborate the F# minor claim. I will submit a new edit of the article this weekend, and hopefully put an end to this question. Michael.H.Holmes (talk) 23:00, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have just updated the article again, this time with a reference corroborating the claim that the song is in F# minor. My edit states that the recording "is performed in" F# minor. The text which I replaced says that the song "is written in" E minor. I don't know that there's any way to tell what key the song was originally written in, and in any case that is not relevant to this article, which is about the Turtles' recording of the song. That recording is in F# minor. I removed and did not replace the text about the vocal range and the tempo. Those could easily be determined, but apparently a reference is needed and I do not know of a reliable reference for that information. (The version that is available on Musicnotes.com states a vocal range, but that is based on the key that their version is published in and would not agree with the actual vocal range on the recording.) Michael.H.Holmes (talk) 16:12, 27 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Michael.H.Holmes: While I understand that you are concerned that the current information in the article is incorrect, it appears from your edits and several comments above that you will need to familiarize yourself with Wikipedia's (WP) core content policies. These specific policies are: 1) WP:V (verifiability)/WP:RS (reliable sources); 2) WP:NOR (no original research)/WP:SYNTH (no synthesis); and 3) WP:NPOV (neutral point of view). Please see the info at the links in the previous sentence for more info. These policies are in place to ensure that WP only contains verifiable information from reliable sources, rather than information that is, for example, fabricated or a matter of personal opinion. All editors are required to understand and comply with these policies in order to edit WP.

It will take some time to prepare info and links to help you edit in alignment with Wikipedia's policies, as well as explain how your comments and edits are in conflict with these policies. I'm a little short on time right now; but since there is no hurry to change the information in the article, and since it is much more important to make sure that any changes or additions are verifiable, please allow a few days for me to get this info together for you.

Also, please wait for input here, before adding back into the article the disputed info regarding the key F# minor (though you are of course free to make other, undisputed, changes). Similarly, any source you are considering using to support this disputed change should be placed here first, for discussion and vetting. Thanks. Big universe (talk) 03:28, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I will wait to hear from you before attempting another edit. I'll admit that I jumped in with both feet without researching WP policies. It is frustrating -- I'm only trying to correct an obvious error -- but I'll be patient, and thank you for your patience as well. Michael.H.Holmes (talk) 16:04, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Michael.H.Holmes: No problem, I'm happy to help. It can be difficult to wade through all the policies and such, and sometimes (for better or worse) the only way to discover the most important ones is to be bold--and learn from the revert, when there is one. But you don't have to halt all editing on WP, just please don't add the F# minor bit until we can find and vet a good source (if one exists). I will post again in a few days, but in the meantime, please also read the core editing policies I linked above; mastery of these concepts will be of great benefit to you here. Cheers, Big universe (talk) 04:16, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have read the Wikipedia core policies and procedures, and I believe I understand why you objected to my edits. I'm ready to suggest new text here, with references, which I will do below. First though I want to address the existing reference that claims the song "was originally published" in the key of E minor. That reference is: source (click on the button "View Full Product Details".

The Musicnotes.com website offers several different arrangements of Happy Together for different instruments and/or singers. The arrangement for Piano/Vocal/Guitar is referenced above, and if you click on "View Full Product Details" you will see the text "Original Published Key: E minor".

Here is a link to the arrangement for 2-Part Choir + Piano: source (click on the button "View Full Product Details". If you click on "View Full Product Details" you will see "Original Published Key: F minor".

Here is a link to the arrangement for Guitar Recorded Version: source (click on the button "View Full Product Details". If you click on "View Full Product Details" you will see "Original Published Key: F# minor".

Et cetera. There are still more versions, in still more different keys. The meaning of "Original Published Key" on the Musicnotes.com website appears to be the original published key of the particular arrangement that is being purchased. It doesn't identify the original published key of the piece. The Musicnotes.com reference has been misused to identify the key of the original publication of Happy Together. It's an understandable mistake, but clearly not correct.

I have so far only found one reference on the web that explicitly states a key for the song (F# minor). However, the remaining members of The Turtles maintain a website, and on that site they make available a lyric sheet with chords: source. The other source is a website created by a music teacher, with information for music teachers: source.

Here is the text that I would propose:

"The Turtles website provides a page with lyrics and chords for "Happy Together" which lists the first chord of the song as F# minor and the last chord as F# major.^[1] An analysis of the song by music educator Emily Scott Langerholc states the following: "This song moves between parallel keys, switching almost instantaneously between F# minor (where it begins) to F# major as the chorus begins."^[2]"

Using this text, we do not claim that the song is in F# minor, but instead provide a quote from an online source. This is backed up by the reference to the chords available on The Turtles' own website.

Finally, I'd like to say that a valid option would be to remove the Composition section of the article entirely. I think I've demonstrated that the source for the E minor key is not valid. If you don't find the references for the F# minor key satisfactory, then simply removing the incorrect information would be an improvement. Michael.H.Holmes (talk) 20:59, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Michael.H.Holmes: I'm very glad you've looked over the documentation. It's quite late here right now, but will look into what you've posted, and hopefully have some comments for you sometime tomorrow. Thanks, Big universe (talk) 04:32, 3 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Michael.H.Holmes: Ok, here are my comments. I'll cover the policy issues first, then explain what you're seeing on the Musicnotes site.

WP:BLOGS

• When I reverted your second attempt to add the F# minor info here, I noted that the source you used (which is the same source you linked above) is a blog, and thus not in accordance with WP:BLOGS, the policy RE citing blogs and other self-published sources. Your source is still problematic.
• WP:BLOGS says: "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications." (emphasis mine)
• The author of the blog says she's a teacher; even if she's a teacher, we have no way of knowing whether she's an acceptably competent one. Either way, she's not a recognized subject matter expert, per WP:BLOGS.
• For example, Mark Lewisohn is considered an expert on the Beatles. If he had a blog, his blog posts (about the Beatles) could be used as a reference for the relevant Beatles articles on WP.

WP:SYNTH

• You said: Using this text, we do not claim that the song is in F# minor, but instead provide a quote from an online source. This is backed up by the reference to the chords available on The Turtles' own website.
• This is basically the definition of WP:SYNTH (no synthesis). The information has to be explicitly stated by the reference(s); we can't provide refs and then leave it up to the reader to "draw their own conclusion"—especially when that conclusion isn't obvious to most readers, who are unfamiliar with music theory/analysis.

Musicnotes: "Original published key" vs. transpositions/arrangements

• The two versions you linked to, for 2-Part Choir + Piano, and for guitar, are arrangements of the Turtles' original song. Neither version is the original song itself. (There are 19 total available arrangements: the original Turtles version + 18 variations. The Turtles' version is the first arrangement on the list. To see the full list, click on the blue text "See other arrangements of this song", at this link.)
• An arrangement is based on a song, but is itself considered to be a "new" song. For example, the arrangement for 2-Part Choir + Piano (versus the original Turtles' arrangement for their 6-piece rock band) was composed in F minor—so the "original published key" of this arrangement is F minor. But it is an arrangement/derivative of the Turtles' original song, which was originally published in E minor.
• Also, only the original Turtles' version (click on the button "Transpose") has (6) transpositions, which are identical to the original song, except shifted up or down by one or a few steps to accomodate voices/instruments. None of the other 18 arrangements have linked transpositions available, because they themselves are only derivative works based on the original song. (No need for a "derivative of a derivative".)
• Therefore, the current reference is still consistent and reliable, and E minor still appears to be the original published key.

Suggestions

• Probably your best bet would be to look through archives of Billboard, Rolling Stone, or other music magazines/publications. There may also be some good resources on Google Books or Google News. Maybe somewhere in the archives it says that they increased the speed of the recording in order to shorten the song's length (for whatever reason), which would result in a higher pitch and thus an apparently different key in the final recording vs. the printed sheet music. Or maybe they decided to play it in a different key. Or maybe it actually is recorded in E minor, but it doesn't sound that way to some, or people are listening to different versions.
• Regardless, we need a reliable source that either directly states F# minor, or explains the difference, if there is one (and if it's not just an artifact of the recording process). Musicnotes is a licensed provider of sheet music, and what they publish on their site came from the original publisher/copyright holder of the music. And it's still the only reliable source we have so far.

Hope this was useful. Big universe (talk) 04:59, 4 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Bug U, you are claiming that the first arrangement in the list is the "original Turtles version", apparently because it's first in the list, and because it provides transpositions, am I understanding you? Please have a look at the full list of arrangements here. There is one labeled "Guitar Recorded Versions (with tab)". That one in it's title claims to be the recorded version, and it is in F# minor. There's nothing on the Musicnotes site that states that the first arrangement in the list is the "original", that's a conclusion that you are drawing.

I'm getting frustrated and am near the point of trying to escalate this to a higher level. My frustration is that at this point you still think it's reasonable to claim that the Turtles' original recording in E minor. That recording is out there in the world, it's easily accessible, it has been posted to YouTube, you can check it out for yourself without spending any money. If you haven't already done so, please check it out for yourself and verify the key. If you don't have the musical ability that allows you to do this, you must have a friend or acquaintance who could do it for you. I know that constitutes "original research" and can't be used in the article itself, but it can and should inform our discussions here. Reality matters!

While I'd like to see the article state that the song is in F# minor, I really, really, really want to see the incorrect E minor information removed. That's my goal at this point.

Michael.H.Holmes (talk) 14:35, 4 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Michael.H.Holmes:

Is E minor the original published key?

You said: Bug U, you are claiming that the first arrangement in the list is the "original Turtles version", apparently because it's first in the list, and because it provides transpositions, am I understanding you? ... There's nothing on the Musicnotes site that states that the first arrangement in the list is the "original", that's a conclusion that you are drawing.

• "Bug U"? Freudian slip, perhaps? LOL
• That's actually not what I was claiming. In any case, the source in the article states unambiguously, in the list of transpositions here (click on button "Transpose 7"), that the "original published key" is E minor. Am reasonably sure my explanation above was also pretty clear, but I decided to look for a licensed sheet music provider that offered less confusing/oddly-worded choices.
• Sheetmusicnow.com is a licensed provider. They offer only 3 versions of the sheet music, and all 3 versions are in E minor. Two versions are non-transposable (SKU: 387984, SKU: 368200), and one is transposable (SKU: 124079). (The transposable version, when purchased, offers the original published version as a printable-as-is PDF, plus an additional download that can be transposed via their website.)
• So, the original published key is E minor, as verified/confirmed by a second reliable source.

"Reality matters"—or does it?

You said: That recording is out there in the world, it's easily accessible, it has been posted to YouTube, you can check it out for yourself without spending any money. If you haven't already done so, please check it out for yourself and verify the key. If you don't have the musical ability that allows you to do this, you must have a friend or acquaintance who could do it for you. I know that constitutes "original research" and can't be used in the article itself, but it can and should inform our discussions here. Reality matters!

• I am a professionally trained musician, with a formal music education. Yes, I am fully capable of doing a full analysis of the piece. However, I have refrained from giving my own opinion, because the fact is that neither my, your, or anyone's opinion matters here; the only thing that matters is what reliable sources say per WP:RS and WP:OR, i.e. two of the three core editing policies.
• The following may be helpful: Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth. It is an essay, not a formal policy, but it does a good job of explaining why "Reality matters!" isn't enough.

Final thoughts

• Please realize that I have no problem with adding the info that the recording itself (as opposed to the original composition/sheet music) appears to be in F# minor—as long as there is a reliable source to support it. I do hope you find such a source—but a reliable one needs to be found before the info can be added.
• Also, just wanted to mention: please see this link on how to indent your talk page replies to make your replies easier to read.

Sincerely, "Bug universe", aka Big universe (talk) 23:21, 4 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Bug U" was just a typo, sorry about that! I'm taking this too seriously. It's entirely possible that the sheet music was originally published in E minor. I don't know, but as I mentioned before I don't think it's relevant to this article, which is about a specific recording of the song. I'll keep looking for a good source about the key of the recording, and will try to maintain radio silence in the meantime!

Michael.H.Holmes (talk) 01:06, 5 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Michael.H.Holmes: No worries: I thought it was hilarious! You did seem to be getting very frustrated with the situation, but there's no need for "radio silence". There could be other aspects of this article that you'd like to improve, or you might try editing other articles (music-related or not). Maybe even choose a random article to edit from the Random article generator. As far as "original published version" vs. the key of the recorded version, both can co-exist peacefully in the "Composition" section of the article. I think readers would find it quite interesting if the recorded version is actually different from the original composition. Whatever you decide, good luck in your search, and best wishes!

Big universe (talk) 02:56, 5 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]