Talk:Gyros/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Archive 2

Pronunciation clues are all wrong. The 'γ' is pronounced as an 'h'. 'Hee-ross'. Of course that's only what the Greeks do.

Also the bit about generous paprika and so forth: erroneous.

My family has always said /'jiɹoʊ/. I'm not sure how common this pronunciation is though. I've also heard that the pronunciations /'xiro/ (by native Spanish speakers) and /'hiɹoʊ/ (by native English speakers) are common in the southern United States (probably due to Spanish influence). I'm pretty confident that the versions beginning with /dʒ/ are not universal. Unfortunately, I can't find any sources to validate this. I'm hoping someone else can shed some light on it. Attys (talk) 00:20, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

This has caused a bit of confusion even in my small town in Central Western Illinois. I pronounce it basically exactly like "hero", which seems to also name another sandwhich entirely, one which I would call a Hoagie or Sub, and many others a Po'boy. (or at least one variety of such a sandwich) The mention of Spanish influence on pronunciation makes a bit of sense, considering names/words like Xalisco, and given that the IPA for Spanish states that the IPA designated x is like "loch (pronounced [h] in many dialects; like ham)", which when I've heard it is a fairly guttural h-like sound, and given how the Scotsmen seem to tend to pronounce loch, it makes even more sense. Meanwhile a handful of other people pronounce it with such a hard "J" sound that it sounds just as if they were saying "gyroscope". Of course the mention of dialects really seems to open up a whole can of worms. We could argue for centuries and never really reach a concensus. Perhaps we could work toward deprecating the name hero for the submarine sandwhich altogether? It does have plenty of other names. --shiny666 (talk) 06:51, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Gyros prepared with minced meat in the US? Not in my experience in getting them. Does anyone else's experience contradict the article? 128.194.21.25 22:08, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the minced meat kind is by far the most common in my experience in the Boston area. It is hard to find the layers-of-sliced-meat kind.--Macrakis 23:22, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Agree, My experience in Boston and elsewhere in the US is that flattened strips of minced spiced lamb is the most common. Most of it purchased as IQF strips.

http://www.kronosproducts.com/pages/prod_portion.htm Klonimus 07:02, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Only now looked at that link. Good God, what you people have to put up with. When is the revolution? Palmiro | Talk 19:32, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I've never seen a gyro made with ground beef. And I'm somewhat of a gyro conosseiur.

"In the United States, many restaurants (and even Greek-American festivals) sell gyros with meat which is pre-formed into strips (as though they had been sliced from the rotisserie)" Have been eating gyros all over the U.S. for over 30 years (small town, big city, east coast, west coast, gulf coast, and everywhere in between) and have never even seen "pre-formed" strips, only meat carved from the rotating "log" thingies. Right now, live in the smallest of midwestern towns and even here, the gyros are cut from the "log." I must live a very sheltered life...Jmdeur (talk) 00:16, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

p.s. the link above is broken, so can't even partake of "pre-formed into strips" gyros vicariously (not that that sounds terribly appealing)...Jmdeur (talk) 00:30, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

In Australia, it's always called Souvlaki, and almost always served with lamb, or sometimes chicken. Never pork or beef. It comes with tomato, onion and lettuce, some thick garlic sauce (yogurt?) and finished off with some lemon juice. Many people ask for it without onion/garlic/whatever. Never have I seen it with French Fries. Due to the high greek population in Australia (especially Melbourne), Souvlaki is very well known and a very common fast food. döner kebab, and shawarma are pretty rare, although increasingly common due to recent increased migration from the Middle East. commking

Are you sure you're talking about the same thing? Souvlaki = shish kebab = shashlik = spiedini means little cubes of meat (often also tomatoes and onion) cooked on a skewer; usually served in pita etc., just like gyro = döner kebab = shawarma. --Macrakis 20:33, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Gyros refers to how the meat is cooked, but as I said in Australia it is served as Souvlaki. Souvlaki is not the same thing as a kebab, shaslik or shawarma. Souvlaki is a Greek variant of the same thing, but distinctly different. The bread is different as is the way the meat is prepared. The Arab, Persian and Turkish style kebabs have their own distinct style of meat, cooking, presentaion and identity. Are you saying they are really the same thing? Tell that to a Greek/Turk/Arab/Iranian/Whatever and see what response you get! (and I would agree with them)commking 1 May 2005

No, you are totally wrong. Why don't you try going to Greece to see how they do it?

In Australia it isn't always called Souvlaki, that is just one of the varieties of this style of dish available here. Yiros is the common name in Adelaide (although they also have souvlaki), and Perth has mostly kebab's with the odd showing of souvlaki or yiros. Kebab seems to be the most common Australian term for this dish, whose style will vary depending on what greasy late-nite spot you get it from. Yiros is usually lamb, sometimes chicken and yes, sometimes beef, and appears to be Lebanese in origin. It is nothing like doner kebab which is just horrendous, and it isn't the anything like any gyros i've ever had either (thankfully!). It is very similar to Souvlaki, the meat is sliced relatively thinly, then stacked and cooked on a vertical skewer - but it is prepared differently. Yiros is marinated and prepared with more spices (i.e. it tastes better). It is served the same - garlic sauce (not so bland/yogurt based - that is more Greek - Tzatziki), tomato, lettuce, maybe chilli sauce, maybe hummus and tubouli wrapped in a (uncut) heated pita. Doner kebab is common in Sydney - but they tend to call souvlaki and yiros 'kebabs' too, as does Perth. The Greek-style kebab/yiros/souvlaki tends to have a more greasy taste with blander sauces, whereas a good hot fresh Lebanese yiros has a cleaner and richer flavour. The US (Boston) 'gyro' is somewhat lacking in comparison to both, and they dont know how to wrap it properly either (appears to be more Israeli in origin?).

Just a note, someone can clean this up, but the writer above claims Donna/Donner Kebabs use minced meat and it seems he is implying this is the case in NSW. However, I have never seen this done at any kebab shop, from the stylish fast food franchise 'Ali Babars' in the city to the family owned traditional shops in Sydney's lebanese heartlands to the kebab stalls at the Easter Show (state fair), I've never seen mince, only the sliced meat. The same goes for the few kebabs I've eaten in Brisbane. <<comment by anonymous user -- moved from main page to Talk page>>

This is no problem: they are totally different things, prepared, served, and eaten diffeently.

In Athens it is not called "pita gyros", it is called "souvlaki". "Souvlaki" is called "kalamaki" instead. There is a strong debate between ppl from Athens and ppl from Thessaloniki about the "right" name of them, resulting in laughing at anyone that asks it using the opposite word. Moreover in Athens, they use "souvlaki" for the standard filling, whilst "pita me gyro" means that the person is going to choose the filling immediately after.

While usage of the term "kalamaki" is fairly widespread in Athens, as you described, using "souvlaki" in lieu of gyros is much less common (not surprisingly, as it constitutes a recipe for confusion, if you'll pardon the pun). The few people I've seen systematically use such mangled nomenclature as "souvlaki with gyros" are either rabid nativists from Athens, trying to emphasize their Athenean lineage (be that real or, more commonly, imagined), or -mockingly- fanatical nativists from Thessaloniki, trying to perpetuate stereotypes about Atheneans... 84.254.12.220 (talk) 18:52, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Gyro, döner kebab, and shwarma are really the same food under different names, with regional/national variants. Shouldn't these three pages be unified?--Macrakis 04:00, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I have made some comments on this issue at Talk:Shawarma. Perhaps we can discuss the ins and outs of it there. Palmiro | Talk 10:12, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't see why gyro shouldn't have its own article. It has become a popular standard of American cuisine, not to mention in its home of Greece and other parts of Europe. If the articles were merged, what would the new title be? 300 million English-speaking Americans generally know what a gyro is, but have never heard of a döner kebab or shwarma. If the article is unified, it should probably have the title "gyro", although I think separate articles are warranted. Uris 01:38, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry but when you write 'American cuisine' are you referring to somewhere in particular in North America, or in Latin America, or in South America? I didn't know gyros were popular in Mexico, Argentina, Chile, Guatemala, Brazil, and other 'american' countries. Please explain.

I doubt that 300m English-speaking Americans know what a gyro is. But I would guess that you're right that the name "gyros" is more common in the US than "doner" or "shawarma". However, though this is an English-language Wikipedia, it is not a US Wikipedia. And I think it would be more contentious to unify under gyro or shawarma than doner kebab. --Macrakis 18:25, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

It's not a US Wikipedia? It's spelled that way. Otherwise it would be US Wikipaedia, wouldn't it. But don't expect them to entertain such a discussion. Seriously don't. By default they merge all 'English language articles' under 'en' instead of 'us', 'uk', 'za', 'au', 'nz', and so forth (which would be more reasonable as their language is definitely not English). But they have their rather unique view of the world and the language they erroneously insist on calling 'English' and it's their intention - deliberately or inadvertently or both - it become ours too.

I say no to the merge. Gyros are very different from Doner Kebabs. They both use the same meat but the toppings are different. A traditional Kebab in Ireland would have chili sauce and coleslaw as the topping. In America when you make an Gyro you get fresh tomatos, letuce and a cucumber sauce. Totally different experiences in cusine.

I certainly agree that there are many different things under these names. However, the variants are not consistently connected to the names. For example, I see that "kebab" in Ireland means "doner kebab", whereas elsewhere it may mean "shish kebab". The chili sauce and coleslaw on your "traditional" (traditional???) Irish kebab is unknown in other parts of the world (under any name). --Macrakis 02:53, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

The traditional Irish kebab was brought to the island in the 9th century by Celtic monks returning after a failed mission to the Barbary coast. Although they were unsuccessful in proselytising the obstreperous natives, the local sovereign, impressed by the piety and learning of the would-be missionaries, made them a present of a doner spike and grill, a chili plant and some coleslaw seeds. Unfortunately, as the holy men made their way back through the choppy waters of the Bay of Biscay in their little currach, the heavy contraption unbalanced their craft. The martyr Saint Toirdealbhach of Darndál managed to recover it before it sank into the turbulent sea but himself drowned in the effort. He is commemorated between 2.30 and 4.00am every Saturday night in Dame Street, central Dublin. Palmiro | Talk 18:44, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

How could they have chillis in the 9th Century? It's a New World plant. --Mgreenbe 20:16, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Typical. Try to help people out with some information around here and you always run into some bloody pedant. Palmiro | Talk 20:38, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

If I were a pedant, I would ask what coleslaw seeds are. :) --Mgreenbe 21:27, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Do you think this is a laughing matter? Next you will be claiming that falafel is not a national dish of Ireland. I strongly suspect that this is all a chauvinistic project aimed at disproving the cultural specificity of the Irish nation.

And while I'm on the subject, does it strike anyone else as ludicrous that the article on doner kebab should, in the very first line, give the name of the dish in Turkish (Turkish?) and not in Irish (dónaer ceibeab)? Palmiro | Talk 17:52, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Humorous troll is humorous! Drlegendre (talk) 18:01, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Unless we want to call the entry "Ethnic rotisserie meat and bread dishes" and include gyros, tacos al pastor, doner kebab, and shwarma, I think we should just keep separate entries and mention similarities.--Wasabe3543 23:15, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

So do you propose then to have Wikipedia articles for Kebab (Dublin), Gyros (New York), Gyros (Athens), Doner (Athens) (which is the same thing as Gyros (Athens)), Doner kebab (Berlin), Doner kebab (Boston), etc., etc.? Because 'gyros' doesn't mean the same thing everywhere, nor does doner. The basic problem here is that there is no standardization of the names. And "Ethnic rotisseries meat and bread dishes" gets it wrong in three ways: 1) it is specifically the vertical rotisserie that is in question here; 2) it is not meat in general, but either sliced (the classic) or minced/ground (the ersatz) meat; 3) the bread is optional -- the dish can be served on a dinner plate. --Macrakis 03:12, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't see any way why the three articles should be combined. Simply because they contain similiar indgreidents, each food has its own unique history that makes it its own noteworthy item. There's no point having them all under the same heading when they are different topics, even if they are similiar. Let's just note the similarity in the article, put links, take off the proposed merger tag, and let it be. Terry 00:08, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Shocked, I'm shocked to learn that there hasn't been a merge under "döner kebab" with only a minor condescending footnote that in the U.S. they're called "gyros." But, never fear we are treated with the comment above by some anglophile that "I doubt that 300m English-speaking Americans know what a gyro is. But I would guess that you're right that the name 'gyros' is more common in the US than 'doner" or "shawarma'. However, though this is an English-language Wikipedia, it is not a US Wikipedia. And I think it would be more contentious to unify under gyro or shawarma than doner kebab." As the majority of native English speakers speak U.S. English, it would not be "contentious" in a logical environment to unify under the term commonly used in the U.S. - but this is Wikipedia, so again I'm shocked. Jmdeur (talk) 00:49, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

A pronounciation section should be added to the article.

In many places, it is pronounced like the word "Hero" (i.e., Philadelphia).

In other places, it is pronounced "Gyro", like the first part of the word "Gyroscope" (i.e., New Brunswick, NJ)

Perhaps a geographical breakdown would be best.

72.82.162.103 06:01, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

both are wrong, it is properly pronouced 'Ye'ro... there is a pronounciation key in the article... - Adolphus79 06:03, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, in Greek it is certainly pronounced [ˈʝiɾos], however [ʝi] is hard for English-speakers to pronounce -- about as close as you can get using English sounds is ['jiːɹəʊ] ("year" + "oh"). But the spelling "gy" is hard to reconcile with that pronunciaton, so in English it is often pronounced according to its spelling, namely ['dʒaɪɹəʊ] as in gyroscope. If ['hiːɹəʊ] is indeed the current Philadelphia pronunciation, I predict that either the spelling will change to reflect the pronunciation or vice versa. Anyway, we're not here to determine the "proper" pronunciation, but to report the facts on the ground. --Macrakis 21:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Certainly in Australia it is always used in the plural and spelled yiros or yeeros pronounced ['jiːɹos]. The US pronunciation ['dʒaɪɹəʊ] is what linguists call a "spelling pronunciation". Anyhow, all of this complexity points to keeping the articles separate, rather than combining them into one gargantuan or unwieldy whole.WikiLambo 18:42, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I live in the US, but have never heard gyros pronounced as in "Gryoscope"; it's always jiros. | AndonicO ^{Talk | Sign Here} 21:11, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

California resident. Everyone I know and myself have unsurely called them Gyros as in Gyroscope, but have heard of and been confused by Euro and Hero as alternatives. More importantly, though, why isn't this a section in the entry? It is relevant, given the confusion and variation (in America at least), and some people (like myself) come to Wikipedia to find answers to this type of question. (Note: fancy, proper, off-keyboard pronunciation guides are of absolutely no use to the common person who is curious.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.181.230.9 (talk) 05:58, 26 February 2007 (UTC).

Someone had deleted the section on pronunciation in Gyros#Name. I've restored it. Yes, it uses IPA symbols, which are the WP standard for several reasons: 1) it is hard to represent some pronunciations unambiguously using informal systems; 2) some sounds don't exist in English; 3) WP is intended for people who don't speak English as a native language as well as English speakers. In particular, there's no way to write the Greek pronunciation ['ʝiros] using the YEE-ross system, because none of the sounds ʝ, i, or o can be represented in English writing; as for the English pronunciations, I suppose you could write [ˈdʒaɪɹəʊ(z)] as JIE-row(z) ("ie" as in "pie", not "hoagie"; "row" as in a boat, not as in an argument) and [ˈjiːɹəʊ(z)] as YEE-row(z) ("row" as in a boat, not as in an argument), but those extra explanations are annoying.... --Macrakis 14:25, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

In Detroit or Chicago it's universally pronounced as "hyeer-ohs," which is much closer to the Greek. But in my experience living in NYC or California it seems to almost always be said "jie-ro" (as in "gyroscope"). Strangely, this is even true in Greek neighborhoods in NYC. So the pronunciation paragraph in the U.S. section as currently written seems more or less correct to me. 74.72.216.115 18:09, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

In Seattle anybody connected with Greek culture or who wants to appear sophisticated says "yiro" (year-o). "jie-ros" sounds like an obnoxious Americanism. What's more interesting is how the "s" succumbs to English plural rules. "I'll have a yiro"; "I'll have two yiroz". Or for those who pronounce the "s" in the singular: "I'll have a jiros"; I"ll have two jiroz". "Souvlaki" in Greek restaurants and festivals means the meat as a dinner *without* the pita (or with it on the side). Arab restaurants generally call it gyros, though some use shawarma or variations, The Mediterranean Express on Broadway & Pike has separate menu items for "gyros", "shawarma", "shish kebab", "shish tawook", etc. I have never heard of french fries in a gyros. Sluggoster 18:02, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Interesting! I came to the discussion page thinking it was an error in the article, that no one seriously pronounces it "jie-roes," but it looks like people do! I always thought people only used "jie-roes" as a joke (like saying "burr-eye-toe" or "fah-jie-tah" at a Mexican restaurant), or maybe the first time they ever walked into a Greek restauraunt, before they were corrected by the proprietor. I knew dropping the terminal "s" was pretty prevalent when asking for a single one, but never would have guessed whole regions pronounced it "jie-roes." What a trip! 76.208.120.38 (talk) 03:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

In my junior high school days in the Bronx, NY, I called the Kronos Gyros "ji-ros" because I knew "gyroscope." I discovered "yeeros" while attending the Bronx High School of Science, where I befriended a number of Greek students (some said "g'yeeros" with a soft g, as in girl). I don't speak Greek, but I do want to climb out of the pit of ignorance. If "gyros" is singular (I'm guessing it is), what is the correct plural? To paraphrase an old punchline, "I'll have a gyros, and give me another one." Also, is Alton Brown of "Good Eats" incorrect by calling it a gyro sandwich? (episode "My Big Fat Greek Sandwich) I thought it was just "gyros". You don't call a hamburger a "hamburger sandwich." NBK1122 (talk) 03:39, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

First of all, "girl" has a hard G. Secondly, I'm American and I've never heard anyone say anything other than "Yeeros." 128.211.198.168 (talk) 05:00, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

I had my first gyro in, if I remember correctly, the Astoria neighborhood of queens in 1967. It was certainly no later than 1969, so I dispute the Chicago U.S. origin part of the article. The vendor could hardly speak English, but pronounced it gyro as in gyroscope. Years later when I ordered one in a restaurant in my home town in upstate NY I pronounced it the way I had learned it and the people I was eating with scolded me and said it should be pronounce yeerow. When I ordered one in NYC off a greek vendor and called it yeerow he scolded me and said to pronounce it the right way, ie like gyroscope, so that's the only way I'll pronounce it now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.236.24.207 (talk) 23:27, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but the image of that article

shows Döner kebab!!! Read the image description page!!! --217.250.3.12 09:09, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

What's your point? Also it isn't clear what "that article" refers to - the gyros or doner kebab article perhaps? I guess I could post an image of a Buick and point out what it is too. BTW, this image appears to be an orphan as neither the gyros or doner kebab articles show it any longer.Jmdeur (talk) 01:13, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

In Greek cooking the meat is not shaved like a donner kebab... that is the point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.177.118.187 (talk) 21:31, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I am from the Chicago area, and trust me, if you walk into a Greek Restaurant asking for a (Jie-ro) or (guy-ro) or (guy-rose) don't be surprised if you get smacked in the face. It is pronounce as (yeer-ose) in the Chicago metro area. Maybe its because we have such a strong Greek community, but outside the Chicago area I cannot help but laugh when I hear the other pronunciations.

I think you should edit to include regional differences within the United States, like for example, in Chicago, it is pronounced more or less the same as it is in Greek. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.88.228.230 (talk) 02:01, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

This bit sounds odd: the term 'the lot' usually means all the previously mentioned fillings plus cheese . The lot was a common term for hamburgers, where one might specifiy one or two ingredients, or the lot. I haven't heard this used for gyros were there are so few ingredients, and where you'd rarely choose to not have one, so there doesn't seem to be a need for a term to cover all ingredients, because really that is the norm and the only way gyros are served. As for the claim about cheese in a gyros, well I've never seen that in Melb or Sydney, and I've eaten plenty of gyros over the years. (Most of those guys running those gyros shops would probably try to put you on the spit if you asked for grated cheddar cheese on your gyros!!!) Asa01 08:27, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Gyros is not called doner kebab in Greece. It's called by its Greek name of gyros. --85.75.233.92 02:02, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

You are mistaken. The name ντονέρ used to be very common; it is less common now. Ask an older person. If I remember correctly, it is also listed in the Babiniotis dictionary. --Macrakis 12:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Yep, Babiniotis has it alright. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:58, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I checked last night, ντονέρ is also in the Andriotis dictionary. --Macrakis 20:44, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Yep, it all started when we greeks wanted to hellinize (i HATE that word) all food. Tzatziki became giaourtoskordio (suprisingly giaourti is also a Turkish word), Turkish coffee became Greek, Doner becomes gyros etc. What I dont get is why we claim that ancient greek nuts,honey and sesame candy called kopte was in fact baklava? Was the phyllo dough to obvious to mention in the recipe? :P--91.132.140.23 (talk) 01:18, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

In my entiere life i never got gyros in greece not made out of pork. Is there anybody who's really sure that that it is common to use beef or lamb too? Otherwise i am recommending to change this part of the article. --NackteElfe 04:13, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Pork is by and large the most common ingredient, but I've come across more than a few places that sell γύρος made from chicken (beef as well, although that is rarer). Chicken gyros fell somewhat out of fashion over the avian flu scare, but it seems to be making a comeback these days. There are even gyradika that deal in chicken gyros exclusively (such as a rather well known shop in Kalamata. Porfyrios 11:01, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I am sure that beef or lamb (more so lamb) is common. I am of Greek heritage, and have a lot of traditional Greek family. Parts of my family are even in the Greek resturant business. The traditional gyro meat (and in my opinion best tasting) is made from lamb. The only trouble is that this is typically more expensive than other forms of gyro, so not every place will carry it. -- Laokoon 18:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Lamb is by far the traditional meat used in Souvlaki --Orestes1984 (talk) 21:56, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

The current statement about gyros being sold in Canada as donair is inaccurate. Gyros are sold as gyros in Montreal, Toronto and Ottawa. There is one regional variation in Montreal, where the Kojax chain of greek fast food joints spells it yero.

Here are some online menus for verification: [1] for Toronto, [2] for Montreal, [3] for the yero variant spelling in Montreal and [4] for Ottawa (this menu also has a donair seems to be the same meat but with different toppings and sauce).

Donairs are commonly found in the Maritimes, especially Halifax, served with a locally derived sauce that is quite different from tzatziki. See Donair#Canada.

I've also seen donairs advertised frequently in Vancouver, although I've never been to a Greek fast-food joint there. This may be another regional thing.

--Bigheadjer 03:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't souvlaki be merged into this article, as it is what Athenians call them? Also, that picture doesn't display gyros well; it doesn't even have pita! The one in souvlaki should be used as the top picture if the two articles are merged. | AndonicO ^{Talk | Sign Here} 23:32, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Gyros, Doner, Souvlaki and Schwarma = NOT ALL THE SAME THING. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.115.93.124 (talk) 19:07, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

(comment moved by AndonicO) indispeakable! NEVER SHOULD IT BE MERGED! IT IS LIKE MERGING APPLES AND ORANGES

Doesn't the lead say they are the same, only that the Athenians call them that? | AndonicO ^{Talk · Sign Here} 00:39, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

It shouldn't because Athenians do not call gyros souvlaki or souvlaki gyros. In fact I think this part should be edited out. When what the Athenians call souvlaki has gyros it's a gyros souvlaki, when it has chicken it's a chicken souvlaki and so on and so forth (not only Athenians use this naming convention but then the " people in Southern Greece is too general). Gyros doesn't have to come with pieces of pita by the way.Ela de

Ok, I'll remove the merge then. Thank you for explaining. | AndonicO ^{Talk · Sign Here} 13:23, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

The thing is, in greek, we might say we are going to eat souvlakia, what we mean, is partake in the food that that vendor sells us. In greece that might be whole small pieces of meat cooked on small sticks, or gyros. In cyprus it can mean those things and also sheftalies (meatballs wrapped in caul fat and barbecued). BUT souvlaki is the whole little bits of meat cooked on a stick- its simple, the word has aquired a new meaning- a rather secondary one- the generic word for eating what one eats from the place that sells souvlaki. The problem is further compounded by the greeks using singular words to describe a plural- so instead of saying last night we ate some good souvlakia (meaning anything that they sold us there), they may say, last night we went to eat a very good souvlaki- meaning the same thing, but to the non native speaker indistinguishable from "last night we ate a very good portion of meat, cut into small pieces, threaded onto a small stick and barbecued". so over time to athenians and others in greece, the meaning of souvlaki has changed. but the PRIMARY meaning is bits of meat on little sticks!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hotspury (talk • contribs) 15:57, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

"Due to a large Turkish population in Germany, Gyros is a well known term for either chicken, pork, or lamb doner meat..." That is absolutely wrong! In Germany Gyros is known as typical Greek food and it's only made of pork! Döner is Turkish, Gyros is Greek! So this misinformation was deleted. --80.133.189.160 15:22, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Trying to make the article better, I have questions but not answers:

1. The Merida section is out of place. Other sections at this level are about countries, this one is about some sort of measuring portions of meat. Move or delete, please.
2. The Philippines section isn't quite right. Schwarama is defined elsewhere. If it's a popular dish in the Philippines, such a thing should be mentioned and maybe deserves a section. If it's just something served at Middle Eastern festivals (see the photo), maybe it doesn't deserve its own section. (This food is no doubt served as a minor specialty in many lands.)
3. The top photo shows gyro meat and is German. If the food is big in Germany, maybe it should be mentioned.

Lou Sander (talk) 13:27, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

The first picture depicts a portion of donner and not one of gyros proper. 79.130.207.138 (talk) 18:52, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Some sources indicate that the döner kebab was invented by Mahmut Aygün in 1971 in Berlin (e.g. http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?Doner_kebab_creator_dies&in_article_id=489170&in_page_id=34). Currently, this article claims that "The Arabic shawarma and Mexican tacos al pastor are similar to gyros, all derived from the Turkish döner kebab which was invented in Bursa in the 19th century" Is this correct? (unsigned)

The newspaper article gets a lot of things wrong. Dondurmak, for example, means 'to freeze', as in dondurma 'ice cream' (lit. 'frozen'); it is dönmek that means 'to turn'. As for Aygün, he supposedly invented serving döner in a pita with sauce (as opposed to on a plate with pilaf) -- or maybe he simply introduced it to Germany. If that is true, it is not a big leap from serving shish-kebab/souvlaki in a pita with sauce, which was being done before then. --macrakis (talk) 23:34, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Gyros have been popular in Detroit for far longer than the date given here for Chicago. I have no doubt that Chicago played a larger role in popularizing them nationwide than detroit did, but it seems inaccurate to imply that was their introduction to the American palate. On Thermonuclear War (talk) 01:31, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

The "unwrapped gyros" is a donner kebab, traditionally the skewered meat from a "souvlaki" is used for a gyros... the wrapped version. It is annoying to see the Turkish influence coming in all of the Greek articles on wikipedia. --Orestes1984

I don't have enough edits to post an image but here you can see a traditional gyros grill in greece being cooked on "Souvlaki" skewers feel free to use this as I took it myself

http://i47.tinypic.com/w8x308.jpg

As for the "turn" you can see the skewered meat being "turned" here --Orestes1984 (talk) 22:36, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

'Souvlaki' originally referred to skewered pieces of meat, and 'gyros' to meat shaved off a large vertical skewer. These days, 'souvlaki' often also refers to gyros meat served on pita. You can check all this in the Babiniotis or the Andriotis dictionaries. Apparently in some parts of the world, it works the other way around, too, where souvlaki meat served on pita is called gyros. I don't think there's any dispute that gyros comes from the Turkish döner kebab -- after all, an earlier name in Greek for gyros is ντονέρ (also documented in Babiniotis and Andriotis). --macrakis (talk) 22:55, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

As you can see that is a primary source which disputes the fact that gyros is made using a rotisserie... that photo is taken in Athens, Greece and it is not unusual to see similar gyros kitchens throughout Greece in terms of encyclopedic value I would much rather rely on a primary source (my own eyes) versus a secondary analysis, you siting somewhere in America. Donner is also almost unheard of in most parts of the world as well.

If you would like more primary source evidence my grandfather cooked "Souvlaki" (interchangeable as you stated) in exactly the same manner--Orestes1984 (talk) 23:16, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Please review our policies on reliable sources. As the policy says, "Primary sources... are often difficult to use appropriately. While they can be reliable in many situations, they must be used with caution in order to avoid original research." Anyway, a photograph of a restaurant kitchen with a stack of cooked souvlaki doesn't demostrate anything, certainly nothing about the 'traditional' meaning of 'gyros' vs. 'souvlaki'. --macrakis (talk) 23:29, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

If you want to misconstrue context be my guest, I guess it's hard to identify the context but you can take that as you will to say it shows nothing is a bit of a misnomer but I'll let that one slide. If you want to look at historical context then history, or in this case food history is nothing more than document analysis and you should know there should be a preference towards primary sources over an interpretation which can often be misleading. If we want to get to the root of why something happened, or the way it happened than I would rather look directly at the words of Plato than look at someone who has analysed his texts and come up with their own interpretation. Much more reliable evidence can be gained through primary source documents and interpretation than later printed texts, but then the credibility of the source always has to be taken into context. --Orestes1984 (talk) 23:40, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Of course primary sources are crucial to original research. However, Wikipedia doesn't publish original research. (see WP:NOR)

Anyway, in this particular case, I don't see how a picture of a restaurant kitchen proves anything about the history or nomenclature of gyros and souvlaki. --macrakis (talk) 00:11, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

So many countries are presented as "having" gyros but most are just wasting space on the article and talk about other variants of the dish. How related can it be to the article that in Iran they eat the Turkish variant and call it Kebap Torki? Imo, we should transfer the sections that are about the Turkish variant to the Doner Kebap article, and the ones about the Arab variant to the Shawarma. What do you guys think? --79.166.31.123 (talk) 15:16, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree that there is a problem here. The root cause of the problem is that doner kebap, gyros, and shwarma are really just variants of the same thing, and should be in one article. But this apparently is politically unacceptable. --Macrakis (talk) 15:44, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

I was born and raised in Chicago and gyros is pronounced more or less the exact same way as it is in Greek (yee-rose). I have never heard it pronounced the other ways until I went outside the Chicago area (mainly everywhere in Europe except for Greece) and the East Coast.

I think the pronunciation article should make a point of the way it is pronounced in Chicago.

And to the person who said that it was Detroit that put Gyros on the American map. I strongly disagree and it is correct to say that it was Chicago that really promoted its popularity in the States.

Minver (70.88.228.230 (talk) 02:07, 14 February 2011 (UTC))

One of our refs supported that, so I added it. — kwami (talk) 02:47, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Clear content fork with doner kebab and shawarma. This is a regional, eastern-Med dish, not three different national dishes. AFAIK, the Greek name is the most common in English, so we should merge here. If another name turns out to be more common, we can always move later. — kwami (talk) 08:34, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

• Support as nominator. — kwami (talk) 20:02, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose move/merge of Doner kebab and Shwarma articles into Gyros. Each has reliable sourcing and sufficient information to stand on its own. However the articles do have issues and could have overlapping/duplicative content removed. -- nsaum75 ^{!Dígame¡‎} 06:05, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

They're real content forks. To keep them as separate articles, they'd each need to be more than just shaved meat on bread. — kwami (talk) 08:33, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

• Strong supportagree They are definitely content forks. I proposed the merger a few years ago, but the national boosters on all sides shot it down. To make this happen, we'll need to get third-part support from participants in Wikiproject Food and drink. --Macrakis (talk) 16:01, 18 February 2011 (UTC) Clarification in view of comment below: I don't care what the name of the merged article is -- doner kebab would be fine with me. --Macrakis (talk) 15:45, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose They can and should be merged indeed but not in "Gyro". It may be the most common name in the US (not at all in the whole English speaking world), and the sources we have all over (including Greek sources) indicate us that Doner is the original name of it all. Merging them under "Gyro" would be quite unencyclopedical indeed. Note: Please don't come with any "google hits" or so, that's not the smartest way to write an encyclopedia either. --77.168.185.151 (talk) 01:58, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

So that's agree to the merger, just oppose my proposed name. Those are really two different issues: the larger issue is the merger; we can always change the name later if it turns out not to be the best.

As for Ghits, the problem is that "gyro" is almost entirely gyroscope, and "doner" almost entirely donations, so it's impractical to get results. —

kwami (talk) 19:37, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

There are tricks for disambiguating Google counts, e.g. search for [gyro meat|sandwich] and [doner meat|sandwich], but the more serious problem is that Google hit counts are really not at all reliable, even for comparisons. A friend at Google tells me they're primarily for entertainment value.... --Macrakis (talk) 20:11, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Ngrams at least suggests that gyro predominates. At least it does in the phrase "X sandwich".[5] — kwami (talk) 08:56, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose using gyro (food) as the name of the article. Leaving it at the current name is preferable. Jonathunder (talk) 18:48, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

So that's merge to the current name? (The gyro/gyros debate is below. So far no-one has given a good reason for gyros.) — kwami (talk) 11:38, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

• Comment from the doner article: "In the Philippines, döner kebab is referred to by its Arabic name, shawarma, ...". Several entries are like that. Obvious content fork. — kwami (talk) 00:56, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

• Comment Aglaia Kremezi, probably the best-known writer on Greek food, says: "Greeks, in their most successful food marketing coup ever, managed to hijack the Turkish and Middle Eastern döner, making it known the world over as gyro, a brilliant made-up word (so far as I know) for that type of roasted meat." (Aglaia Kremezi and Anissa Helou, "What's in a Dish's Name", Food and Language, Proceedings of the Oxford Symposium on Food and Cookery, 2009, ISBN 190301879X). --Macrakis (talk) 23:53, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

"so far as I know"... such a disclaimer should ring all warning bells (any written information is "so far the author knows" but if it's deliberately stated it is an explicit admission that the author is quite unsure). Also "food marketing coup" and "hijack" is utterly NPOV. Also consider that they didn't just "hijack" it but seem to have made it deliberately off-limits for Muslims. So it is really the antithesis of döner instead of a copy. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 03:46, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose combining. The methods are similar, but the dishes are VERY different. This would be like putting all oven roasted mean in one category. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.181.202.37 (talk) 17:55, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

• Could you be specific about what systematic differences you see between the dishes? Yes, there are differences, like yoghurt-based versus tahini-based sauces, or sliced meat versus ground meat (which I would consider ersatz, but that's not NPOV), or lamb vs. pork vs. chicken; but there are even bigger differences among variants of pizza (tomatoes or not? baked on the oven floor or in a pan? thin or thick? various toppings...) or variants of moussaka (bechamel, custard, or no sauce? meat or meatless? eggplant or zucchini?).
• Though there are differences, they are not closely correlated with the names. After all, the Greek name used to be ντονέρ (doner) until the term γύρος was invented (see Kremezi above, but also Babiniotis and Andriotis dictionaries), perhaps for similar reasons as "Greek coffee". --Macrakis (talk) 19:08, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

• Strong oppose While very similar, they are not identical. I would support merging the redundant variations sections, but not the articles. Reywas92^Talk 22:35, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

• Of course there are lots of variants of gyros/doner kebab/shwarma. The recipes vary by country, they even vary from one restaurant to another. But that is not an argument for keeping three separate articles. Should we also have three separate articles on, say, shoestring fries and steak fries rather than one on French fries which discusses the variants? (At least there, there's a consistent difference you can predict from the name.) If there is such a clear difference, could you please explain what it is? As it is, in the current Wikipedia articles, as Kwami says, we have curious phrases like 'in country X, shwarma is called doner'. --Macrakis (talk) 23:11, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

• Support The description minced meat mixed with spices, grilled on a stick, shaved off and served on or in flatbread with vegetables and other condiment covers the lot. I understand that there may be nationalist reasons for splitting hairs, but as Macrakis has well pointed out the variations seem to be more to do with the chef's interpretation rather than any intrinsic character of each dish. I've eaten doner kebab in Europe, North America and Australia, and all they had in common was the above. I've had doner in Cyprus that more closely resembled the gyro of Canada than it did the doner of London, but shawarma in California that was almost a dead ringer. The dishes are not "very different"; having four separate articles is creating confusion and actually prevents any consideration about what are, in actuality, merely regional variants. Pyrope 02:14, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose - I've eaten "gyros" in the United States (also in Greece), "shawarma" in the United States, and "doner kebab" in the United Kingdom and Ireland, and I will testify that the foods identified by these three names are different. There's an eatery near my house (operated by people from Palestine or Syria, I think) that has both "gyros" and "shawarma" on its menu, and the two items are very different. --Orlady (talk) 03:10, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

• I have eaten gyros in the US and in Greece, shawarma in the US, France, and Syria, and doner kebab in the US, Germany, and Turkey, and there are lots of variations, no question. But there is more difference between one gyros stand in New York that I've eaten at and another one in Boston than there is between the first one and the doner kebab I've had in Istanbul! Within the US, the name seems to vary regionally, so if the dish was introduced by Arab or Israeli vendors first to an area, it tends to be called shawarma, if introduced by Greeks, gyros, etc. even though the actual foods are the same. --Macrakis (talk) 04:08, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

• Support. These are three names for what is essentially the same dish. (I'm not sure Gyros is the best article name and/or merge target, but that is a separate discussion from whether the three should be merged.)  --Lambiam 16:50, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
• Comment The OED defines a shawarma as a doner kebab. It's even the same word as the gyro: "shawarma ‹ Syrian colloquial Arabic šāwirma, šawirma ‹ Turkish çevirme sliced meat roasted on a spit or skewer ‹ çevirmek to turn, rotate." Compare "gyro ad. mod.Gr. γῦρο-ς, lit. ‘turning’ (cf. gyro-), from the meat's being cooked on a spit." and doner kebab also döner kebab a. Turkish döner kebap, f. döner ppl. a. turning, rotating (f. dönmek to turn) + kebap kebab.]

They also mark gyro (no *gyros) as US English. — kwami (talk) 20:44, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

• Support All those terms: "gyros" "shawarma" "doner kebab" and "al pastor" describe actually the same kind of fast food. You slice the meat and put it on rotating vertical spit-grill thing (1 2 3 and 4). It is true, variations exist, different types of meat, spices, types of bread and styles of serving, etc... Those could coexist in the same article though as variations. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 21:13, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I think not just that we can fit the variations under one article, but that the variations do not correspond to the various names: while one city may distinguish a gyro from a shawarma, another city may not, and in a third they may have the opposite meanings. — kwami (talk) 07:33, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

I liked the etymological analysis. There might be some unambiguity and naming confusion or even name clash for a sliced meat roasted on a spit or skewer. We need to describe what is general here, currently it is not clear where such content goes and it is a pity. Names could differ between location and location, see Turkish coffee, for instance. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 18:17, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

• Support in accordance with my comment in the renaming discussion below. Andrew Dalby 18:33, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose (ever so strongly) Metaphysical arguments about what food is really what other food (should hot dog be not merged with sausage per the support arguments here?) are pointless and endless. What matters are the published sources, and plenty enough treat of these foods as culturally distinct even if they were physically identical. Food is culture, not physics. μηδείς (talk) 17:56, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I see no metaphysical arguments here. Are you taking the philosophically questionable position that if there are three names for a thing, they are three different things? Should we also have separate articles for Greek coffee, Bosnian coffee, and Turkish coffee?

You say there are "published sources" -- could you please point us to reliable sources supporting your position? So far, we have Aglaia Kremezi, in an article published in the Oxford Symposium, saying quite explicitly that gyros was just a name invented for doner kebab, which in fact used to be called ντονέρ (doner) in Greece. Are there articles published in Gastronomica or the Oxford Symposium proceedings or other serious food-related publications? Or are you just talking about blogs and the like? --Macrakis (talk) 19:47, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

• Comment From the doner kebab article: 'In Australian shops r stalls, greek style kebabs are called souvlaki in Victoria or "yeeros", or "yiros" in South Australia and New South Wales. "Doner kebab" is the Turkish name.' This was just changed from 'In Australian shops or stalls run by Greeks, kebabs are usually called souvlaki in Victoria or gyros, spelled phonetically as "yeeros", or "yiros" in South Australia.'

The souvlaki article says that a gyro is a 'kebab usually made of pork or chicken' (that is, essentially a synonym for souvlaki and shishkebab), completely at odds with this article. — kwami (talk) 01:18, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Kwami, I think you're reading too much into the words. Both 'kebab' in English and 'souvlaki' in Greek have come to have different meanings in different places: referring to chunks of meat (shish) or slices off a vertical spit (doner) and sometimes referring just to the form of the sandwich (pita wrapped around meat, vegetables, and sauce) rather than to the kind of meat. For all I know, there may be places where gyros refers to the chunk version by now. It certainly refers to an ersatz ground-meat-patty-cooked-on-a-griddle version in some places. Again, all this is a reason for merging. --Macrakis (talk) 12:54, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

FYI, shish is a native Turkish word for "spit" or "skewer", not a Farsi word, and not a word meaning chunks of meat. μηδείς (talk) 17:47, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but why is that relevant to this discussion? We all agree that shish kebab = şiş kebabı is not the same thing as doner kebab = döner kebabı. --Macrakis (talk) 18:25, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

But if we all agree to that, the argument for not separating gyros and döner is a hair's breadth from being invalidated. See my comment below - before the 1820s there was only şiş kebabı, and the "Greek" and "Turkish" versions seem to have gone separate ways a mere 20 or 30 years after some Turkish guy turned the spit 90 degrees. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 03:59, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

• Comment There were comments from number of angles, above and bellow that it would be logical to merge into Doner. I would also support such merge, per sources I have reviewed. This is mainly a technical note, since in case of merge redirection links from original names would be preserved. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 11:03, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Ok, Agada, I second you on that, why don't we start a discussion for the above, and open the possible merge to Döner. (I'm not very knowledgeable in computers and do not know how to do it, please forgive :) )... --Emir Ali Enç (talk) 11:39, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

• Proposal Guys, the debate is still warm and on a stalemate. As a pro-merge user under the Döner name, like many of you are, I propose we follow a logical roadmap: Let's first merge Shawarma and Döner which are the closest versions under Döner, as both are -mostly- made made of (NON MINCED) lamb meat. Then we'll have a stronger article to merge with the Greek version, who differs by using other kinds of meat, often minced, but is still, as far as I am concerned, the same thing all over. Pennies for your thoughts... --78.184.149.243 (talk) 00:19, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

• Doner and shawarma are often nowadays made with chicken, not lamb, at least in Turkey and Syria (where I've been recently). Gyros may be made with sliced meat (the high-quality artisanal version) or with minced meat (the cheap industrial version). I don't see that merging shawarma and doner makes sense without also including gyros, especially since every reliable source that anyone has contributed (see below) supports the three-way merge. Moreover, gyros was called 'doner' (ντονέρ) in Greece as well until the 1970's. --Macrakis (talk) 01:08, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Come on Macraki, Tavuk Döner is something else, and is definitely NOT the majority in Turkey, (yes for Syria though...) So Finally, do you support the merge under "Döner"? (Emir) --85.100.119.67 (talk) 10:37, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose Al Pastor Merge Al Pastor is a Mexican dish that has a completely different marinade and the flavor is not even remotely close to the middle eastern and European dishes discussed on this page. The only real similarity is that it is cooked using a similar method, the spices are different, the type of meet used is also different, how it is served is also different. I am undecided on the Doner, shawarma, and gyro merge, but they certainly shouldn't be merged with al pastor.--MATThematical (talk) 00:07, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
• Comment I have eaten kebabs, shawarmas, and gyros across Europe, Turkey, the United States, and in Central America, and regard them as essentially the same food. Styles of presentation vary within individual countries, and between countries, but I cannot identify any overarching, consistent differences that would make it possible to identify them by different names. I came to the articles about kebabs, shawarmas, and gyros to discover what distinguished one from another, and I have not found anything to persuade me that they are essentially distinguishable. However, any proposal to merge the three articles should be advanced cautiously, with people not thinking only of their local experience (original research). Perhaps knowledgeable food experts can identify distinctions that I cannot. — O'Dea (talk) 08:22, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose The whole discussion seems to center on where and under which name what dish is sold today and seems to totally disregard history. I'm under the impression the names for the different dishes with same cooking style got mixed up while they spread over the world as the fast food we know today. But as far as I know, "Döner Kebap" was historically only prepared with mutton or lamb meat, while "Gyros" has always been made from pork. And I clearly do not consider mutton/lamb and pork to be the same thing. It is only the cooking method that is the same. I think even the sandwich style serving of today isn't how it was eaten historically. I think each lemma should describe the historical food, one should contain a section an nowaday's fast food usage around the world, while the others contain a section that only provides a reference to that. That of course whould need some research. Skibbi (talk) 20:19, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Support merger despite the above objections, on the basis that these historical/ingredient difference aren't usefully discussed across articles with different names. Unless a hard distinction exists worldwide between these brands, they are overlapping synonyms, warranting merger by policy.

Why do I think that these are synonymous terms? Because, if presented with one of these concoctions, I'd never be confident in classifying one as a "Gyro" but not a "Doner" - would anyone? --Wragge (talk) 19:09, 8 August 2011 (UTC).

• Oppose They are different enough to warrant separate articles and there is plenty of info here to keep Gyros separate. 120.152.248.129 (talk) 05:31, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

• Support All three articles are the same list, am I the only one that notices that? For instance, for Australia, the turkish kebab in pita is mentioned in all three articles. The information itself is quite small for all of these articles. Regional differences are already discussed for each country. If I look up kebab in an Encylcopaedia, I should be able to see what they are like in Nigeria even though they're called Shawarmas. The article could simply be "Shaved Meat" with disambiguation links for deli meats and so on. Alternatively, all 3 articles could be greatly reduced, and a fourth 'list' article could be created. Gmip (talk) 01:46, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Sources

Since decisions on WP are decided by WP:RS, not a vote, let's simplify things:

Sources for merging

terms refer to essentially the same thing, or do not consistently distinguish varieties

1. The two most popular ways meat of all types is prepared are grilling (in shawarma, gyros or kebab) ... Lamb is most popular meat in the Mediterranean region ... One of the most popular ways to serve lamb is something called shawarma in Lebanon, Syria, and Israel; gyros in Greece; and doner kebab in Turkey... Lamb meat is sliced ... ^[1]
2. Simply the best fast food invented, the shawarma is the stable snack fast food of the Middle East. While you'll hear it called many other things in many other countries - Gyros in Greece, döner kebab in Turkey, it's only known as shawarma in Dubai...^[2] [Comment: It is sold by Syrian immigrants in San Francisco as shawarma (personal observation). Also, the writers of the Lonely Planet series (source of this wild "Dubai" assertion) should not be considered as international authorities on food (personal observation). — O'Dea (talk) 08:36, 16 June 2011 (UTC)]
3. The Turkish vendors call it doner kebab, while others Lebanese, Syrian and Arab call it shawarma. No matter; shawarma and doner are virtually the same thing, and they've become the iconic cheap eats of Berlin... This fast food.... maybe based on Middle Eastern kebab and Greek gyros... ^[3]
4. Another common type of kabob is the shawarma of the Arab world, döner to the Turks, and gyro to us, which involves threading slices of marinated lamb onto vertical spit...^[4]
5. Greeks, in their most successful food marketing coup ever, managed to hijack the Turkish and Middle Eastern döner, making it known the world over as gyro, a brilliant made-up word (so far as I know) for that type of roasted meat.^[5]

Sources for status quo

terms do fairly consistently distinguish different varieties

References for above

Comment: Any source that claims gyros is exclusively lamb/mutton disqualifies itself as "reliable" automatically. As per el:Γύρος:

"Γύρος ονομάζεται το έδεσμα που αποτελείται από κομμάτια χοιρινού κρέατος από διάφορα μέρη του ζώου." (emphasis added; see also Cambridge World History of Food source given there. Also note el:Ντόνερ κεμπάπ.)

Overall Wikipedia practice is inconsistent: compare Mămăligă/Polenta/Cornbread/Kačamak/Pap (food)/Ugali or Çoban salatası/Shopska salad/Greek salad/Serbian salad (not merged) with Potato pancake (including latkes etc), Pilaf (including piláfi, pulao etc). Considering Reibekuchen and Boxty however, the usual practice seems to be to WP:SPINOFF.

Therefore, I propose to postpone decision until content has been straightened out. I.e. cleanup, remove duplicate content except from intro, and see what is left.

If this is sufficient (and consider also de:Döner, de:Gyros, de:Schawarma, which is telling in and by itself given that de: is hyper-deletionist and will never allow separate articles if they can be merged) the articles can be kept separate, but perhaps an overarching article of meat-grilled-on-rotating-spit dishes can be made (cf. Al pastor, and also including horizontal-spit dishes. This would presumably be either Kebab or List of kebabs.)

If there is not enough unique content for each even after evaluating the possibilities of translating from other Wikipedias, then, and only then, a merger is clearly warranted.

In any case, the original merge argument in clear violation of WP:CSB. "Modern-style" döner kebap is a Turco-German dish that is hard to get in English-speaking countries, where the term "döner" (judging from my personal experience) basically means "low-quality gyros". The underlying reason is that "UK döner" is usually Greek Cypriot - i.e. it is gyros by another name - due to the lack of a significant number of Turkish immigrants in the UK (for reasons that ultimately go back to Lord Byron). But in any country with a substantial proportion of Turkish and Greek (and possibly Arab) immigrant populations, there is a strong distinction between the two/three, with gyros being haraam (and possibly deliberately so).

The case of chow mein (still close to its original form) vs chop suey (internationally famous in a thoroughly Americanized form) is the only equivalent I can think of. Fry's Turkish Delight and Turkish delight may be another case however, with the English sweet based on but quite different from the original lokum. But perhaps more significant is the fact that pizza is kept separate from sfinciuni.

The underlying problem is that 200 years ago there was only şiş kebap. The common history of yaprak döner and "Greek döner" = gyros is extremely short, they must have been well distinct by the mid-18th century already (i.e. only a few decades after yaprak döner was invented) as "Greek döner" apparently was "porkified" soon after Greek independence. By the 1970s, the two only shared the vertical-spit method of preparation in most of Continental Europe (even the bread that comes with them was different). With "Berlin döner" appearing in the 1970s and spreading all over Central Europe and back to Turkey (because European tourists actually complained about the "bad" - i.e. yaprak - döner in Antalya etc) 10 years ago.

Ultimately, thus, splitting is preferrably to merging, as the dishes have separated for good - not yet globally, but in the "core area" and with an obvious overall trend. That they were one and the same in the 1820s (and none of them existed in the 1810s) is not a valid point. Otherwise, why not merge Blancmange and Tavuk göğsü and Panna cotta and Bavarian cream? These, too, are "only variants of the same theme"; and at least the difference between the original blancmange and tavuk göğsü is much less than that between döner kebabı and γύρος (as natives of Turkey and Greece understand the terms).

In summary, the Anglosphere is really the only part of the world where "gyros" and "döner" are synomymous. "Döner" and "shawarma" are a more complicated case, but they tend to be separated too these days whereever substantial Turkish and Arabic populations coexist. Ironically, if you are in Central Europe and want an "original" döner, you have to get a shawarma and hope it's lamb (it usually isn't). Even in Turkey "Berlin döner" is starting to replace yaprak döner, because the former is more suitable for mass production.

As regards the original debate, I would favor keep separate if RS exist for the history of all variants because for a dish that was only invented in the 1820s the shared history is apparently very short and the historical development of all three is interesting in and by itself. As a Central European who can choose between three quite distinct and stereotyped horizontal-spit meat dishes offered by Greek, Turkish and Arabic takeaways located within 5 minutes walking distance or less, I cannot see any reason at all for merging, considering we have List of kebabs and Kebab as common-denominator articles already.

tl;dr: "Greek döner" = gyros should be made from pork, and this is apparently an intentional post-1832 snipe at the Ottomans; shawarma is the most plesiomorphic; "Turkish döner" can be "traditional" (not consistently distinct from shawarma), but if not ("Berlin döner") it is actually the most distinct and youngest of the three, apparently unknown before 1971.

(The Oxford Companion to Food, while quite mixing it up, offers a clue to the origin of the confusion: as it seems, the Cypriots are really the guilty party in the confusion of terms. Time Out Athens also explicitly points out that what is sold as "gyros" in the Anglosphere would be unrecognizable as such in Greece.) Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 03:40, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Dysmorodrepanis, as an addition to your comments, can you explain me, how the modern "Döner" is a Turco-German dish? Maybe the one you eat in the "Anglosphere" or anywhere in the west, but nothing as such here in Turkey, where we have, be sure a lot of different "modern" takes and variations on the döner theme, like the "Kaşarlı dürüm" etc. (see the article in the "serving" section and the associated references of the article in general). Are these not "modern", now?. Also, out of my ignorance, what is a "Berlin Döner", exactly? If you mean a döner in a sandwich eaten as fast-food, it is clearly not imported from Germany. We all ate it in the 50's, even before, as far as our family memory goes. If you mean a more special variety with sauces etc. that contains more pre-frozen minced meat than yaprak, as "modern döner", then, that version is quasi inexistant in Turkey, maybe in Alanya, Antalya or places with a high german population, but definitely not in any major metropolis. Anyways, the version you talk about as "modern" is clearly not the version the döner article is talking about, as far as I can see.

Also, any Turk having been to Europe, complaining about the "bad quality" or even "uneatable" döner over there, would never eat that here in Turkey neither. You also have to support another argument of yours with proper documentation, from local sources if possible, where you claim that "Even in Turkey "Berlin döner" is starting to replace yaprak döner, because the former is more suitable for mass production. " Well... No! (Where did you ever get this?) Here, an overwhelming majority of places impale their meat from the morning on, in front of everyone, to finish the sales by late afternoon. The version you talk about is just not to the taste of Turkey, I can attest of this. Why make döner out of frozen minced meat and why in the world put ANY sauce in it? It's very unnerving for me to read you, as you sound kind of a neo-colonialist defending anything anything originating from the west as "better" or "more popular" and "will ultimately conquer"... No, no and NO!. (I know it's not out of bad faith, though, it is just your lack of information on the subject and your sources being exclusively western for something that is not).

You also lack another fact, the one pertaining to the history of the döner. 200 years ago, there was NOT only the şiş kebabı, (where did you get this, yet again?), and of course, şiş kebabı is not at all the ancestor of döner kebabı.... Most probably, cağ kebabı is... Have you at least read the döner article in English, or perused ANY of the sources in question? There are even pictures from the 1800's going around...

--Emir Ali Enç (talk) 11:25, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, I've seen it. Tried to get actual yaprak döner for years in the Rhine area, it's almost impossibly hard. There was one shop in Bonn but it only did it on special days and it closed eventually. It's easier in Berlin, but there too you can commonly see the large pre-formed spits which consist of some slices (for structure) wrapped in minced meat. Might be there are some statistics on it. Certainly, the manufacturers offer yaprak döner as well as the mainly-minced version, so it should be possible to get figures of how much is sold of which. When I'm in Cologne and want sliced-meat döner, I have to grab a tavuk döner because I have not yet found any yaprak döner there (and it's Germany's fourth-largest city after all, with the second-largest (IIRC) Turkish immigrant population).

(NB: according to the German food laws, you can sell it as "döner" if there is 60% minced meat or less. So, some slices always have to be in there. But a bunch of slices wrapped in mince is not the same thing as a stack of slices. Chunky puree does not a yaprak döner make.) 13:00, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

None of the above sources support the merge for Al Pastor (or even talk about it). I suggest that we no longer include al pastor in the proposed merge, and just focus the merge proposal on doner, Schawarma, and gyro. The only similarity between al pastor and the others is the method of cooking. It would almost be equivalent to adding a rotisserie style chicken to the merge--MATThematical (talk) 16:22, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

I see no logical reason why shawarmas and gyros should be in the same article. They are two different foods. I live in a city with a lot of shawarma places and a lot of gyro places, they're not the same thing. Some sandwich shops sell the two items separately. Brighamhb

This is kind of like saying "Penis" should be moved to "Peni" because "use singular per MOS." I was not aware that "gyros" was now thought to be the plural form, for the majority of English speakers. --JBrown23 (talk) 21:40, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

This article repeatedly reinforces that this is a Greek dish that comes from Greece. Except of course in the origins section, in which we learn that "gyro" is just the Greek word for the identical, older, original Turkish dish. What's going on here? 15:53, 16 February 2013 (UTC)~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.189.46.33 (talk)

To be more constrictive: 3.1 Greece and Cyprus should be moved to the Greece section of Doner Kebap, and everything else on this page should be merged with Doner Kebap. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.189.46.33 (talk) 15:59, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

There are also sources out there that say that the Gyro was invented in the United States in a greek community in New York.

In any case, shawarma is not the same thing (as some people have claimed above). There is a Lebanese restaurant near where I live and both gyros and shawarma are on the menu; I can attest they are two completely different meats in texture, taste, composition etc. 70.99.104.234 (talk) 20:04, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Donner kebab, shawarma and gyros are not the same thing either, neither are souvlaki pita. In any case this article is a mess of Middle Eastern influence over a separate meal, I am Greek Australian, so disconnected from this all anyway. But what is generally sold in a taverna or shop is what is known as souvlaki which is souvlaki pita, or gyros which is also souvlaki pita and is generally in Australia sold as lamb. In Australian vernacular often referred to as the 3am lamb sandwich.

As my grandfather cooked it it was always "shish" over coals, and sometimes with vegetables and meet on a "shish" stick, referred to as souvlaki. In all of my life as a person of Greek descent I've have however never been served strip meat as in kebab in a Greek household, in fact from personal experience strip meat is frowned upon by comparison to "shish."

Furthermore, the ingredients are different and the bread is different, correctly, Greek pita is a single layer pita bread and not pocket as in kebab bread, traditional souvlaki is served with tzatziki where a kebab may be served with generally anything, salads generally include lettuce, tomato, onion and generally nothing else. Of course what is sold at a corner store is generally made to suit the customer and is not representative of the meal as served traditionally --Orestes1984 (talk) 19:28, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

*Strongly oppose this article is a mess and has been hijacked by people who do not either know, or understand what gyros is, or are Arabic and have edited in good faith but have gotten it wrong. I've just sanitised the Australian section of this article although more work needs to be done. I live in an area where donner kebabs and gyros can be bought, I am also of Greek descent and cook the meal myself, they are not the same meal. Please read over the existing comments on this talk page from 2011 and the history of souvlaki here before you open up any further discussion. They are not the same thing --Orestes1984 (talk) 20:48, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

In Greece the meat used for gyros is mostly pork (in the last decade chicken is also used); I have never come across beef or lamb gyros. Also, the meat is not minced (like in doner kebad or shawarma f.ex.). 195.74.246.171 (talk) 10:41, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

I would like to add a confirmation on this. I was speaking with the propietor of a local gyro shop in my town (#1 Gyro, Missoula, MT, est. 1976). She hails from northern Greece (Sparta area) and told me that she has only seen pork used. I trust her as a reliable source. — TwoToad (talk) 18:39, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Who minces doner kebab? — kwami (talk) 13:29, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Almost everyone in Central Europe, most people in Continental Europe and an increasing number of people in Turkey. Cheaper and allows for industrial-style production. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 04:04, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Re "the meat is not minced (like in doner kebad or shawarma". As has been discussed before, whether doner/gyros/shwarma is made of sliced or minced meat is not predictable from the name. --Macrakis (talk) 13:55, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

It is usually highly predictable for gyro meat in Greece and Continental Europe. As per burden of proof, you'd need to supply evidence that minced and non-pork gyro meat is used to a significant extent in Greece. And from my personal experience, in many places where Turks sell mincemeat döner, competing Arab sellers will use sliced meat for shwarma. The names of the "bastardized" versions sold in the Anglosphere are completely nondescript as regards type of meat, preparation of meat, spice mix and bread used to serve, but this is insignificant for the way these dishes are prepared in their "native range". Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 12:46, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

I would consider my grandfather as a reliable source as any street corner merchant, perhaps more so, the recipe has always been lamb and not Turkish strips but diced meat, this article has been hijacked by well meaning but ill informed folks as per usual by Wikipedia standards, however I will give some leniency as I've also heard this called "souvlaki pita". While Pork has become common, I have found every other meat in Greece including chicken, beef, goat and lamb. Perhaps pork has become the differentiation more so for religious reasons to spite Muslims? I don't know, but given what goes on I wouldn't hesitate some credibility in my personal thoughts. I have also never heard of this "theft" of Donner kebabs from anyone other than those trying to cause unnecessary divisiveness. The meals are completely different, although, given the link of the countries histories due to occupation, I could see how this could be perceived to be the case to be otherwise, but at the same time, I also see the derision of all manner of history between the two nations and can see how this could be taken as just another edit war between people of the two backgrounds. My grandfathers background was from the 1st generation of Greek diaspora from Asia minor, so I take his practices as traditional as they come for someone who lived in this region --144.131.195.171 (talk) 21:38, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

This is due to the American conception of gyros, which is quite different from what the Greeks themselves are used to. It applies to more than just the meat. 79.136.46.40 (talk) 22:36, 7 April 2015 (UTC)