Talk:Freedomland U.S.A.

A few other aspects of Freedomland's failure

I added a little on the fact that Freedomland was difficult to access by subway, then and now the traditional means to access most city amusements. Perhaps they hoped for a tonier audience by automobile, but people who drove could just as easily get to many other attractions not nearly as expensive as Freedomland. Freedomland had some of the same problems as the NY World's Fair of 1964-65: ambitious, crowded and expensive, with just about everything requiring you to open your wallet, as opposed to traditional Coney amusement parks, where you either had bargain tickets and lots of freebies, or else independent competitive amusements. I think Freedomland's builders betted too heavily that the auto was the wave of the future even in New York City

Freedomland's decline reminds me a bit of Dreamland, which went through a similar cycle of relatively high-class entertainment giving way to more typical amusement and quick demise. -- Cecropia 08:19, 28 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

not a B class article, more like start, or C

lots of problems with article, namely lack of references, needs more detail in regards to conception and construction of project, history, etc. Lucky dog (talk) 03:55, 2 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have now reduced to a start class on the Amusement Park Project. Themeparkgc  Talk  01:22, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Improved to C after refs were added. Epicgenius (talk) 13:58, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Freedomland demographics

I remember Freedomland. There was nothing wrong with it, it was to be NYC's answer to Disneyland. The article shies away from the well known facts of the Bronx's demographic change and rapid decline. When Freedomland was being built, the Dodgers and Giants had already fled the change, but The Bronx's Grand Concourse was still home to the middle class. By the time Freedomland folded, they too had fled from the rising crime and declining schools into the suburbs. Richard Price's novel, Freedomland, could be quoted on the subject. And, btw, it's not illegal to talk about it.Profhum (talk) 10:56, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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British Airways Space Rover?

I can not imagine British Airways sponsoring something named after their competior Braniff so i guess this may be a typo?--92.201.158.156 (talk) 15:01, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the heads up. This has now been removed. – Epicgenius (talk) 15:09, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Video

There is a fairly long documentary on the place: "Defunctland; The history of Freedomland," https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSMVeypDWog 2600:6C67:1C00:300:2187:6D1D:49C7:9F2 (talk) 20:05, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

Passing, the article is good to go! Adog (Talk・Cont) 19:22, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Freedomland U.S.A./GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Adog (talk · contribs) 03:11, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]


Good Article review progress box
Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV ()
3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant ()
Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

I will also take on this GAN for this week. I should be posting my main points on Thursday, August 3, or Saturday, August 5. Adog (Talk・Cont) 03:11, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following are suggestions for the editor-at-large to implement grammar or sentence structure changes. If the suggestions are improper or not appropriate, you may disregard:

Prose

Lead

  • Operating from 1960 to 1964, Freedomland was built on marshland owned by the Webb and Knapp company, of which William Zeckendorf Sr. was the major owner. Not sure if "Operating from 1960 to 1964" is necessary for this sentence, as the operation history is covered later in the lead.
    • Good point. I've trimed it. Epicgenius (talk) 00:01, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The park layout was conceived and built by C. V. Wood, Comma can be removed.
    • Wood conceived the entire park, not just its layout, so I changed it to "The park, conceived and built by C. V. Wood, consisted...". Epicgenius (talk) 00:01, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • ... and Freedomland opened on June 19, 1960, to large crowds. could be phrased as ... and Freedomland opened to large crowds on June 19, 1960.
  • Because of Freedomland's $65 million construction cost, the park faced financial issues at the time of its opening; "the time of" can be omitted.
  • I know MOS:CITELEAD does not prevent citations in the lead, but I believe the citation in the lead can be moved to the instance where the Plaza Shopping Center is mentioned later on, and/or, add in the part about the indoor mall in the prose.

Creation

Site

  • In mid-1959, Freedomland Inc. leased the site for a 50-year period. "50-year period" can be "50 years".

Opening

  • The ribbon was officially cut by Pat Boone at 8:30 a.m. reads a little bit awkward, it could be At 8:30 a.m., Pat Boone conducted the official ribbon-cutting ceremony.
    • I changed this to "Pat Boone cut the ribbon at 8:30 a.m." Epicgenius (talk) 00:01, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The park had a much smaller crowd on its second day of operation, Comma can be removed.

Areas and attractions

  • Each section featured attractions, shops, and restaurants that fit with the theme of that section. can be Each section featured attractions, shops, and restaurants that fit that section's theme.
    • I reworded it to something similar. Epicgenius (talk) 00:01, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The following sentences lead, "the property layout was arranged," is a bit wordy. I would suggest something like The arrangement of the property layout resembled a large map of the contiguous United States, fashioned in a manner reminiscent of a movie set.
  • Near the end, there are three instances of "time span". I would replace one (or two) of these with "period", "era", "time", or another synonym.
  • The programs were designed to be interactive: for instance, children were enlisted to participate in fighting a reenacted Great Chicago Fire. feels out of place at the start of this paragraph. Maybe it could fit in the preceding paragraph between sentences "The park also had its own fire department ..." and "Freedomland hosted a competition for its official hostess ..."? I would also insert "performance programs" here for clarity and omit the next usage of it in the paragraph.
    • I moved that sentence up. Epicgenius (talk) 00:01, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Like at Disneyland, many of Freedomland's attractions received corporate sponsorships, and alcoholic beverages were banned in Freedomland. Comma is probably not needed before "and".
    • Following the principles in User:Sammi Brie/Commas in sentences, I think this may be an instance where the comma might be needed, since "alcoholic beverages were banned in Freedomland" could stand as its own sentence in theory. Epicgenius (talk) 00:01, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Transportation

  • Express bus service was provided from Manhattan, as well as to the Pelham Bay Park and Gun Hill Road subway stations. could be Express bus services extended to Manhattan and to the Pelham Bay Park and Gun Hill Road subway stations.

Intra-park transport

  • The 2 ft (610 mm) Narrow gauge Santa Fe Railroad traveled between the Chicago and San Francisco areas of the park. could be The 2 ft (610 mm) Narrow gauge Santa Fe Railroad traveled between the park's Chicago and San Francisco areas.
  • The next sentence, "in duration" can be "long".

Little Old New York (1850–1900)

  • The two intro sentences deal with geography and repeat "geographically". I would rephrase to The Little Old New York section was geographically located in the north end of the park, closest to the main entrance, and as such, contained an information booth, stroller rental, and lockers. The section depicted New York City as it appeared in the late 19th century.
  • To reduce redundancy for the reader, I would swap "This section" for the area's title, so in the next instance, "The Old Chicago section was located on the ..." and so on and so forth.
  • Naming specific shops and restaurants is a current grey area in WP:APARKS, but I think it is good for this article considering its short-lived basis and that these concessions likely never changed from the park's inception to its closing.
  • Shops included a print shop to purchase vintage-style posters, apothecary shop, glass blower shop ... Missing an "an" before "apothecary" and an "a" before "glass blower".
  • The following sentence may benefit from removing a few words and swapping the structure, for instance: Unlike in Disneyland, where the shops were connected, the stores were generally separated internally, like actual shops on city streets.
  • There was also a live street show that included a German band, an 1880s Tammany Hall speech, political pep rally ... Missing an "a" before "political".

Old Chicago

  • ... located on the western border of the park, south of Old New York could be located on the park's western border, south of Old New York.
  • A kids' section was included, with a junior Santa Fe train, as well as ... "as well as" to "and".

San Francisco

  • An amphitheater with animal acts and big top stunts ... I assume "big top stunts" is human performer stunts, or animal stunts on a larger scale?
    • If I recall correctly, it was the former. Epicgenius (talk) 00:01, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A skim read-through of about half the article for grammar and sentence structure checks. The article looks good! I will pick this up Friday morning or Saturday. Adog (Talk・Cont) 05:09, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Unbuilt areas and attractions

  • In addition, the park would have been supplemented by the Freedomland Inn, an off-site hotel south of the park, which would have had between 300 and 600 rooms is a little wordy, I would consider changing to The developers initially planned to supplement the park with Freedomland Inn, an off-site hotel south of the park, which would have contained between 300 and 600 rooms.
  • A link from fountain slab to concrete slab?

Operations

1960 season

  • I would consider breaking this sentence into two: At the end of that September, local news media reported that Freedomland had failed to pay the city a 5% amusement tax totaling $148,200, though the unpaid tax was resolved by the following week. "$148,200. However, ..."
    • Done, but with slightly different wording. Epicgenius (talk) 00:01, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • At one point, local merchants refused to accept checks that had been issued by Freedomland. to possibly At one point, local merchants refused to accept checks that Freedomland had issued?

1961 season

  • I would consider breaking this sentence into two: At the end of the 1960 season, park operators initially predicted that the park would reopen in May 1961, though the reopening date was postponed by one month. "1961. However, ..."

1963 season

  • an adjacent 258-acre (104 ha) plot in Baychester, and a development in Dunedin Beach, Florida. "a" can be removed before "development".
    • This refers to a specific development in Dunedin Beach. Epicgenius (talk) 00:01, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

1964 season

  • Staff members were also told that only Little Old New York, Old Chicago, and Satellite City might be open for 1965 and that the rest of the park would be redeveloped. replace "and that" with "while"?

Demise

Bankruptcy

  • ... if it were downsized 30 acres (12 ha), Freedomland estimated that it could possibly earn a $25,000 profit if it were to reopen in 1965. I would omit "possibly" and change "earn" to "make" since earn appears in the first part.

Causes

  • Disneyland had 6 million guests during 1964 ... "during" for "in"?

Redevelopment

  • ... Bay Plaza Shopping Center was constructed on the land occupied by five additional themed areas of the park. "areas of the park" to "park areas"?

Critical reception

  • Freedomland in general received negative attention from members of the media. Commas for "in general" or start the sentence with "In general, Freedomland ..."
    • I changed "in general" to "generally". Epicgenius (talk) 00:01, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The last part of the sentence with ... Freedomland was generally said to garner reactions of either "ridicule or apathy" runs a bit awkward, might I suggest reactions to Freedomland were noted to provoke either "ridicule or apathy."?
  • The proposal bore large similarities to the Freedomland concept ..., "bore large similarities" for me is awkward, maybe The proposal shared a strong resemblance with the Freedomland concept ...

Legacy

Site

  • As a result, Co-op City residents proposed changing the lot's zoning to a standard commercial use. "a" might be redundant here, or maybe not. I am not too sure I can read it either way, but it could be proper with or without it.
    • I think the indefinite article is appropriate, since there are actually multiple types of standard commercial zoning in NYC (most of the variations have to do with density). Epicgenius (talk) 00:01, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Attractions moved to other parks

  • ... Danny the Dragon, interior diorama of the Mine Caverns ... I would add "an" before "interior".
  • "Old Southwest themed" hyphen between "Southwest" and "themed"?

Historical commemoration

  • Two books were published by Acorn Press in the Images of America series; to Acorn Press published two books in the Images of America series;?

References

  • 9, dang, permanent dead link. Any substitution or physical source?
    • I changed it to a link that works. Epicgenius (talk) 00:01, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • 21 and others, "newspapers.com" to "Newspapers.com"?
    • I think both of these might be correct (I've definitely used both capitalizations in different articles). Epicgenius (talk) 00:01, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • 175, "Tampa Bay Times" to "St. Petersburg Times". The name change was around 2010, 2011 from what I remember.
  • 214, "www.ny1.com." to "NY1" or "Spectrum News NY1".
  • 216, "Welcome to NYC.gov." to "nyc.gov" like the previous source?
  • 226, "steamboats.com" to just "Online Steamboat Museum" as the publisher?

Additional comments + issues

I will read through the article thoroughly in a bit, might take an hour. Adog (Talk・Cont) 13:21, 4 August 2023 (UTC) Addendum: Gonna be more than an hour; something non-urgent but piqued my interest came up. Adog (Talk・Cont) 14:06, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • MOS:DUPLINK for "New York City Subway's" in "Transportation". Original link is at "subway" in "Construction".

Apologies for the delay. Multiple factors, including fatigue, job pass up, and having to fix something. But the last three notes I have are:

  • The use of square brackets [ ] for operating years in "Areas and attractions" could be changed to round brackets ( ). I think it is better stylistically. Unless you think otherwise.
  • The indoor mall is mentioned in the lead but not in the prose. Unless the mall is the Bay Plaza Shopping Center, or I missed its mention.
  • Is "Email" usually capitalized?

@Epicgenius: That is about it from me. The article looks good! Almost ready for a pass. Adog (Talk・Cont) 01:53, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Verifiability

The article cites a variety of reliable sources, with the layout of the references proper. Earwig does not pick up a copyright violation. The largest being around 20% but is properly quoted within the article. Adog (Talk・Cont) 13:21, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well written + broadness + neutral

  • The article is well written by the editor-at-large with only minor prose fixes. A general manual of style is followed and aligns with WP:APARKS guide. The article is broad in scope but is focused on the subject and its aftermath and legacy. The article is neutral in tone, with respective praise and criticism for the park's endeavors. Adog (Talk・Cont) 02:01, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Images

Images are freely licensed and properly filed. The paperwork is good. Images are relevant to the article. I only wish there was an image of the park itself. Maybe there are not many images of it. Adog (Talk・Cont) 13:01, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for the review Adog. I've fixed all of these issues now. Yeah, it is a shame that there aren't many images available - the park closed "only" 60 years ago, which in amusement park terms is a long time, but which in terms of NYC development is only a few generations ago. Unfortunately, Freedomland was so short-lived that there aren't really that many images of the park, let alone any that are freely licensed. If the park had survived to the 1980s or 1990s, there would undoubtedly be better photographic documentation of Freedomland, but as it is, any existing images of the park won't become public domain until the late 2050s. Epicgenius (talk) 00:01, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Probably a good thing it did not survive. I think American history amusement parks are doomed to fail in one way or another, such as the mentioned Disney project. The article was a good read. Spot checks clear for content. I did take a train trip across the country this year, and seeing most of these places irl. I wonder how, if the theme park survived today, it would match up against those places realistically or have a Disney-happy spin to it. Maybe if they had built the Florida section and seen the potential of "Florida (wo)man" 60 years out, they could have found success. Alas. Adog (Talk・Cont) 02:01, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
  • @Adog, sorry I forgot to reply to your final comments earlier. To answer your questions:
    • I used square brackets to avoid giving the impression that the text in parentheses was part of the name, even though it's unlikely anyone would consider a year range as being part of the name.
    • Part of the Bay Plaza Shopping Center is indoors, but I reworded the lead to remove confusion.
    • "E-mail" is how the New York Times wrote it at the time. Epicgenius (talk) 05:26, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cielquiparle (talk) 20:20, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(
  • Comment or view
  • Article history
)
  • ... that at Freedomland U.S.A., kids could fight the Great Chicago Fire? Source: Naish, Paul D. (2001). "Fantasia Bronxiana: Freedomland and Co-op City". New York History. 82 (3): 268.
    • ALT1: ... that only 19 members of the public attended the groundbreaking ceremony for the Freedomland U.S.A. amusement park? Source: Talese, Gay (August 27, 1959). "Bulldozer Frolic Ballyhoos Park; Rented Subway Train and Helicopter Also Help Fete Proposed Bronx Center". The New York Times
    • ALT2: ... that Freedomland U.S.A. in New York City was called "a replica of the continental U.S.A., 833 yds from parkway to shining parkway"? Source: "Spectacles: Bizneyland". Time. June 20, 1960.
    • ALT3: ... that the manager of the short-lived Freedomland U.S.A. amusement park hoped that it would be as large a New York City icon as Central Park or the Statue of Liberty? Source: "The Man Who Manages the Show; " Cast" of 3000 Set to Welcome You, Says General Manager Schumacher". The New York Times. June 19, 1960.
    • ALT4: ... that Walt Disney said the Freedomland U.S.A. amusement park in New York City "was wrong from the start"? Source: Woodstone, Art (March 22, 1961). "Miscellany: NBC-TV Color a Natural to Disney; Views on Freedomland & N.Y. Fair". Variety. Vol. 222, no. 4. pp. 2, 46.
    • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/WNYO-TV

Improved to Good Article status by Epicgenius (talk). Self-nominated at 20:00, 6 August 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Freedomland U.S.A.; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
  • Cited: Yes - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith
  • Interesting: Yes
QPQ: Done.
Overall: I prefer ALT2. GRuban (talk) 16:46, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Alcohol in the park?

Article says “alcoholic beverages were banned in Freedomland,” yet there was a Schaefer brewery in Little Old New York? Which is true? Or if both, then how?

Dodiad (talk) 07:44, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Dodiad: This might help from the former source: Although visitors to Little Old New York will see an old-time brewery in operation, no beer will be served in Freedomland nor will any whisky be available. Adog (Talk・Cont) 12:30, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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