Talk:East Timor/GA1

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Reviewer: Ovinus (talk · contribs) 05:54, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'll review this one; excited to learn something new! Given the exceptionally high readership and importance, I want to be careful, so this may take a while to review. I'll make copy edits as I go through; I won't feel strongly about them, so revert as you please. Ovinus (talk) 05:54, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your comments and edits, a slower review is not a problem. Will think about the comments already given and reply when I have fuller time. CMD (talk) 07:26, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Ovinus, this has actually caught me at a busy time, so I haven't had as much time yet as I need. I have had some time though to look into some of your history questions, and I am having difficulty finding answers. There is very little information about the early History of the island, even during the early Portuguese era. Even where information does exist, I have found on occasion contradictory dates in different reliable sources. I suspect this is why many sources keep their information quite general for this period. CMD (talk) 18:16, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Do take your time; I actually have finals next week, so I'll be busy too. That's interesting that information is scant; I think the more important part is defining terms like "sacred house", "dyadic", etc. or using simpler terms. That shouldn't be too hard. Ovinus (talk) 19:10, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Those will certainly be done. Frankly, in the long term Sacred house needs its own article. CMD (talk) 01:32, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Content

Nominator has written the vast majority of the prose, which is good to see. I'll be referencing Canada, a well-maintained FA about an admittedly bigger country, but with good ideas on organization.

• A labyrinthine first sentence. Thoughts on putting non-English pronunciation/translation into footnotes? Ovinus (talk) 06:16, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I shifted them into Etymology, as well as the references, let me know if that looks cleaner. CMD (talk) 11:55, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Me likey, thanks

Etymology

• "in Indonesian, Timor Timur" I'd put this as a separate sentence, and same with the fragment in the next sentence. No need to be too "elegant" when we're just listing translations, and I find this currently very hard to read Ovinus (talk) 06:16, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Spread it out a bit

• Any information on who actually first called it Timor, perhaps in Portuguese? Ovinus (talk) 06:16, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I've looked for this and haven't found an answer. My OR is that presumably the Portuguese started using the name while controlling Malacca, as at that time they did receive trade from Timor. Whether the name was a mistaken translation of a Malay direction, or traders really did call the island East, or the name had split from East already within Malay during some earlier period of thalassocratic empire, I am not sure. I certainly will add it if I ever find it. CMD (talk) 12:04, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Anything sourceable/important on usage differences between East Timor and Timor-Leste? From the current text it seems Timor-Leste is preferred by the international community? Ovinus (talk) 22:23, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Timor-Leste is preferred by the Timorese Government, and formal diplomatic use flows from that. East Timor was the ubiquitous name prior to independence, and has remained in use despite the official preference. Some writers use "East Timor" to refer to pre-independence and "Timor-Leste" to refer to the independent country, but this is not a universal practice. Oddly hard to find a good source on, although I don't think there is much more to say than the name officially being Timor-Leste in English. CMD (talk) 17:40, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

History

• "The first is described by anthropologists as people of the Veddo-Australoid type" – Is this a controversial enough description for the hedge of "described by anthropologists"? Also, the linked article claims that this racial classification is outdated; is that true?

  I've tweaked, the ways that linked page describe the classification as outdated are unfortunately unhelpful to the topic of migratory waves, as they relate to present populations.

• "sacred house" What is a sacred house? A little sacred dwelling, a bloodline, ...?

  I'm having trouble rewording this, as it's literally a house that is sacred. The sources note it is a community and religious centre with a lot of symbolic importance as well, but it is actually a building.

• "dyadic" "temporal" Please dumb it down for me – this should be broadly understandable

  Edited

• "source of tribute" What kind of tribute?

  The source notes it was just on a list of tributaries, it might not be known what various items were given at various points.

• What made sandalwood attractive to Europeans and other traders?

  Added earlier in the paragraph.

• "Early Portuguese presence on Timor was very limited" When did the first Portuguese land? Indeed, who was the first European to set sights on the island, let alone land? This information appears to be omitted

  Presumably traders landed in what is now Oecusse in the 1510s; different reliable sources give different dates, so I assume there is a significant lack of documentation.

• "before that was lost to the Dutch in 1652" What is "that"? Kupang, or the west, or?

  Kupang, tweaked.

• "Effective European occupation in the east of the island only began in 1769" What did the Europeans impose? Were traditional ways of life still tolerated?

  To the extent they could, the Portuguese imposed taxes. They entirely lacked the capacity to do much more at this time, even if they wanted to, and they were stuck in Dili. There is a bit more detail in Portuguese Timor, particularly how control began to expand following the 1861 revolt and subsequent military campaigns, and the 1895 military campaigns which along with other issues culminated in the East Timorese rebellion of 1911–1912, which the Portuguese defeated. This is alluded to in the "until the late nineteenth century" sentences, let me know if more is needed.

• "drove the last of the Australian and Allied forces out" When did the war start and end?

  Added.

• "Portuguese, Indonesian and Catholic Church data estimated 200,000 deaths" Were these data compiled as a joint effort between these groups, or did each of them estimate 200,000 on their own?

  Great question, per the source, it is an estimate generated from all that data combined. The source does stress the uncertainty of the numbers, so I have added that caveat.

• "improvements in infrastructure and services" What improvements? Were there any?

  Primarily health and education services, which I have added. There were economic changes too, but these mostly benefited Indonesians, and disappeared after 1999.

• "The 1991 Dili Massacre" Who killed whom and how many

• Added; a sad topic.

• "Fretilin resisted the invasion, initially as an army, holding territory until November 1978, and then as a guerrilla resistance." Maybe this should go a couple sentences earlier, before the elaboration on living standards?

• Moved it right to the start.

• "The following year, Gusmão declined to run for another term." Did his resignation follow from the unrest and violence, or were they unrelated?

  I'm sure it was related, but I'm not sure how that might be expressed. The period included political infighting between Gusmão and the PM at the time (Mari Alkatiri). Alkatiri resigned, and was replaced by Ramos-Horta, who as noted in the next sentence then become President. Gusmão then ran for PM, and managed to win after some coalition building which I feel is too detailed for inclusion here, although I added his party name there instead of later.

• "an attempted assassination" Maybe "assassination and coup attempt"?

  I am unsure if it is accepted as a coup attempt.

• "AMP" is introduced as an initialism before it is defined

  I've edited that paragraph quite a bit to clean it up and smooth its flow, and removed the coalition names. Hopefully it can eventually be rewritten to be a more general history rather than purely political.

• "Jose Maria de Vasconcelos, known as Taur Matan Ruak" How relevant is his real name? (What do English-language sources tend to use, unqualified? Do they usually introduce him under both names?)

  Cut to just the common name. Both are used, but I would say the de Vasconcelos name is always qualified with the note he is usually called Taur Matan Ruak. CMD (talk) 14:34, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Politics

• "in practice the executive has maintained control of the legislature, under all political parties" This definitely deserves elaboration. Have there been any efforts to fix this imbalance?

  The source states that this is "a pattern typical of emerging democracies" (which sounds accurate to me), and later says "Once the pattern of executive dominance

has been established, it is difficult for the legislature to later assert its independent powers." I have not read anything on changes to this balance, but I have added that this imbalance reflects the dominance of individuals leaders (tying in to later text on political parties).

• "Despite political rhetoric, the constitution and democratic institutions are almost universally respected" By whom? This seems redundant with the last sentence of this paragraph

• The first sentence refers specifically to politicians, whereas the last is for the public. I have tweaked the first and added context from the source.

• "and turnout is high" Average numbers would be nice

• Not in the existing sources, so I added a range from [1].

• The two consecutive paragraphs (one starting "Formally", the next starting "The head of state") appear to largely overlap. Certainly the second is a better way to introduce the role of the president. Maybe they could be merged

  Great idea, merged.

• "Political parties or political coalitions must receive at least 4% of the total votes to enter parliament" 4% or 3%, as stated earlier?

  Well, given those sources disagree, perhaps I am missing some nuance in the 4% one. Going with 3% per this primary legislation.

• "Most parties are based on personality, rather than policy" This seems like far too broad and controversial a statement. Maybe add some more sources and elaboration. (Similar problem as the "maintained control of the legislature under all political parties" part I mentioned)

  I have shuffled the text to hopefully link this statement more clearly with the discussions of the old guard who are the major personalities. I also added more context about CNRT together with a focused source on Xanana Gusmão as an example. CMD (talk) 18:12, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Regarding the participation of women, which I partially reverted a copyedit on, I wrote to emphasise the role the law played in parliament. The English translation of the law is particularly striking: The lists of effective and alternate candidates shall include at least 1 (one) woman candidate for every group of 3 (three) candidates, under pain of rejection..

Administrative divisions

• The municipalities are: Aileu, Ainaro, Atauro, Baucau, Bobonaro, Cova Lima, Dili, Ermera, Lautém, Liquiçá, Manatuto, Manufahi, Oecusse, and Viqueque.^{[citation needed]}

  Done.

• "customary units" what does this mean (compare customary units)

  Took a stab at an explanation.

• "a structure that was only put in place in 2016" – is "only" necessary here? I see it as mild editorializing

  Reworded. CMD (talk) 00:40, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Foreign relations and military

• "seen as mutually exclusive" by whom?

  By Ramos-Horta at the time. The source notes this was expressed as an Indonesian position at the time, presumably Ramos-Horta had specific insider diplomatic info. I have tried to reword it without going into undue detail. CMD (talk) 03:21, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Spotchecks

Relative to Special:Diff/1130484202

• [7]: Good
• [15]: Good. Interestingly, the source uses the name "Oecussi"—do you know what that's about?
• [16]: Good
• [17]: Source claims four waves rather than three as stated in the text.

  I'm having to think about this one. The current source notes 3 clear wave, and a fourth potential wave. This all hinges not only on who arrived, but how a wave is defined. The peopling of the region is an active area of research, so at the moment I'm leaning towards going more general and just noting the arrival of multiple waves. CMD (talk) 10:28, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Fully replaced and re-written. CMD (talk) 10:53, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Just noting I haven't forgot about this; sorry for the delay. I'll have more comments soon. Ovinus (talk) 23:46, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No issue on my end, hope 2023 is working out so far. CMD (talk) 01:41, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I won't be able to complete the review so I will mark this for a second opinion. Ovinus (talk) 09:33, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Second opinion

I'm starting where Ovinus left. Not going to double-check the above review.

Geography

• East Timor shares the island with Indonesia, which separates the main part of the country from the Oecusse exclave -> I find this sentence difficult to understand. It's mentioned more clearly earlier on in the article, so you may want to omit the second half of the sentence.
• The capital, largest city, and main port is Dili, and the second-largest city is the eastern town of Baucau. citation?
• I've made a small edit to the climate change sentence, but I'm not sure if you could describe a 0.8C raise as a small increase. It's slightly under the global average, but that level of warming can still have a significant effect in a tropical climate (which usually see more stable climates, and hence less resilience to warming).
• The northern coast is characterised by a number of coral reef systems that have been determined to be at risk. -> 2010 source is quite old. Coral reef has been changing rapidly over the last 13 years. Still at risk?
• If you're planning to go for FA, you may want to limit WP:PLUSING: Example: There are around 41,000 terrestrial plant species in the country, with around 35% of the land being forested in the mid 2010s. Slightly ambiguous, as forested can mean the act of planting forests or being occupied by forests. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 11:29, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Economy

• "The economy of East Timor is a market economy, which used to depend upon exports of a few commodities such as coffee, marble, petroleum, and sandalwood." When I see "used to", I expect as the next sentence how that has changed.
• Of those of working age, around 23% are in the cash economy, 21% are students, and 27% are subsistence farmers and fishers -> wikilink or explain cash economy. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 11:29, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Demographics

• I would relink Fretilin here; as it's a long article, and people usually don't read every section.
• "Ethnic background and linguistic group do not clearly define Timorese communities, with many communities within these broad groupings and many areas with overlaps and hybridisation between ethnic and linguistic groups" can you write more clearly, had to reread a few times
• East Timor's adult literacy rate in 2010 was 58.3%, up from 37.6% in 2001. I usually expect the most recent numbers in the first sentence. Later the article names the 2016 numbers. Do we need all three? —Femke 🐦 (talk) 11:29, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Culture

• Ancestry was an important component of leadership, with ancestors being an important part of cultural practices -> could be simplified to "Ancestry was an important part of cultural practices and leadership"?
• Impressively written. Those sections I always find exceedingly difficult to write. It looks a bit underlinked. example: internal migration. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 11:48, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• "A strong oral history is highlighted in individuals able to recite long stories or poetry. This history, or Lia nain, passed down traditional knowledge" Link oral history. Consistent tense (either both past, or both present) would make sense here. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 11:48, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Images

• Not a GA thingie, but alts seem to be missing for most. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 11:31, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Thank you Femke for taking this up, and especially for your kind word on the Culture section. Writing about Culture is also traditionally not my forte, so it is encouraging to hear I managed some coherence despite the lack of wikilinks. I have worked through the suggestions you have made, let me know if the fixes suffice. Best, CMD (talk) 09:21, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Looks good! And again thanks for working on an important topic like this. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 17:07, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]