Talk:Dissolution of the Soviet Union

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn by nominator. (non-admin closure) Malerisch (talk) 23:55, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dissolution of the Soviet Union → Collapse of the Soviet Union –

• "collapse of the Soviet Union" is about four times as common as "dissolution of the Soviet Union" (and the other alternatives of "fall" and "breakup") according to Ngrams: [1].
• There are many more results in Google Scholar: 156,000 for "collapse" [2], 37,700 for "fall" [3], 30,700 for "dissolution" [4], and 18,900 for "breakup" [5].
• Dissolution of the Soviet Union § Further reading lists 12 sources with "collapse" in the title (including what I'd consider the most comprehensive source for this topic, the 2021 book Collapse: The Fall of the Soviet Union) versus just one source with "dissolution".
• Britannica's equivalent article is titled "collapse of the Soviet Union": [6].
• Both The Cambridge History of the Cold War [7] and The Cambridge History of Communism [8] use "collapse" in their chapters about this topic.

Based on this evidence, "Collapse of the Soviet Union" is clearly the WP:COMMONNAME for this article. Malerisch (talk) 03:00, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose This article is about the dissolution specifically, and not the broader events that led to it. 128.193.54.168 (talk) 10:33, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the collapse specifically, and not the broader events that led to it. DrakerBaker (talk) 13:53, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's not, read the first sentence 128.193.54.168 (talk) 14:51, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. Existing main title header is analogous to other headers, such as Dissolution of Austria-Hungary, Dissolution of Czechoslovakia, Dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire, Dissolution of the monasteries in Portugal, Dissolution of the Netherlands Antilles, Dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, Dissolution of the Parliament of the United Kingdom, Dissolution of the Russian Empire, Dissolution of Serbia and Montenegro or Dissolution of the union between Norway and Sweden, to name but ten. On the other hand, "Collapse of..." seems to bring up entries such as Collapse of Jiujiang Bridge, Collapse of the Royal Plaza Hotel or Collapse of the World Trade Center. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 02:45, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Roman Spinner If the concern is about WP:CONSISTENT titling, I'll note that "Dissolution of X" is hardly the only way that articles about the endings of civilizations/countries/empires are titled: see Late Bronze Age collapse, Classic Maya collapse, Collapse of the Georgian realm, Division of the Mongol Empire, End of the Han dynasty, Fall of the Western Roman Empire, Fall of Constantinople, Fall of the Serbian Empire, Transition from Sui to Tang, Transition from Ming to Qing, Breakup of Yugoslavia, etc. Some articles have "dissolution" in their name due to WP:COMMONNAME, and others don't because it's not. In fact, some of the "Dissolution of X" articles could actually be titled with "collapse" per WP:COMMONNAME:

• Dissolution of Austria-Hungary: "Collapse" is more common according to Ngrams [9], has more Google Scholar hits (1000 vs 700), and is what Britannica calls it: [10].
• Dissolution of the Ottoman Empire: "Collapse" is more common according to Ngrams [11] and has more Google Scholar hits (10400 vs 3700).
• Dissolution of the Russian Empire: This is a stub and probably just titled after this article, but "collapse" is more common according to Ngrams [12] and has more Google Scholar hits (2400 vs 300).
• Dissolution of Czechoslovakia, Dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire, and Dissolution of the Netherlands Antilles are correctly titled just because they're the WP:COMMONNAME according to Ngrams, not because of consistency: [13] [14] [15].
• Dissolution of the monasteries in Portugal and Dissolution of the Parliament of the United Kingdom are not about civilizations or countries.
• Dissolution of Serbia and Montenegro is a redirect, not an article.

Malerisch (talk) 03:56, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose The dictionary definitions of the words dissolution and collapse are quite clear. Pyeongchang (talk) 16:28, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly, which is why it's relevant that a clear majority of reliable sources choose to describe the end of the Soviet Union as a "collapse" rather than a "dissolution". Malerisch (talk) 17:17, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose Much too vague. Not sure what it is referring to. Collapse of Soviet Union as a great power? Collapse of the Soviet Union's economy? Collapse of the Soviet Union's prestige? Collapse of the Soviet Union in Olympic medal counts? "Dissolution" seems clearer. Walrasiad (talk) 09:07, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You won't find a single source referring to the USSR's prestige or Olympic medal counts when using the phrase "collapse of the Soviet Union". By this standard, isn't "dissolution of the Soviet Union" vague as well since it could refer to the dissolution of, say, Soviet gulags or Cominform? Malerisch (talk) 09:41, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Dissolution" of a union - any union - makes sense in English. And it necessarily implies an end to that entity. Collapse means anything falling down from a certain height. It doesn't necessarily imply any sort of end. Just that something fell from a certain height it was at before - be they geographic size, global influence, GDP numbers, population, literacy rates, football rankings, etc. "Collapse of Soviet Union" does not necessarily imply an end to anything. It simply means the Soviet Union fell in some ranking. And I don't know which ranking you're referring to. Dissolution is clearer. The dissolution of a confederation of sailors' & workers' councils implies that entity is no more. Walrasiad (talk) 10:21, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In the proposed title, "collapse" is referring to a state collapse, which is a well-defined concept and isn't vague at all. No reliable source uses the phrase "collapse of the Soviet Union" to refer to anything other than the topic of this article. Malerisch (talk) 11:03, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's not only not clear, it is also an incorrect description. "State collapse" has an entirely different meaning than here. Anarchy did not prevail. However tricky the post-Soviet order may have been, characterizing it as "state collapse" is a rather stretched POV. If that's what you mean (or if it might be confused with that), that's all the more reason to reject the proposed title. Walrasiad (talk) 12:25, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is confusing a failed state with a state collapse. A state collapse refers to a situation where the structure, authority (legitimate power), law, and political order have fallen apart and must be reconstituted in some form, old or new. On the other hand, it is not necessarily anarchy. [16] It doesn't refer to anything "post-collapse" and doesn't imply anarchy. Even the Wikipedia article makes this clear: the first sentence just says a state collapse is a sudden dissolution of a sovereign state. Malerisch (talk) 20:51, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose, per accuracy. Collapse seems to indicate an instantaneous event, the Soviet Union's dissolution took a bit longer than something in the state of 'collapse'. Randy Kryn (talk) 23:31, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]