Talk:Diptych of Federico da Montefeltro and Battista Sforza

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. While there appears to be no clear consensus or clearly correct title at first glance, supporters have yielded more in-depth arguments and the majority of sources side with them. (non-admin closure) Colonestarrice (talk) 11:43, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Duke and Duchess of Urbino → Diptych of Federico da Montefeltro and Battista Sforza – "Diptych of Federico da Montefeltro and Battista Sforza" is the correct title for the subject painting since Federico was not made a Duke until after his wife's death, so she could not have been a duchess. ^{[1] [2]} Currently page 2 ("Diptych of Federico da Montefeltro and Battista Sforza") REDIRECTs to page 1 ("The Duke and Duchess of Urbino"). When the move is completed page 1 should REIRECT to page 2. TedKinloch (talk) 19:18, 11 October 2021 (UTC)— Relisting. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 19:53, 5 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per nom, & for extra clarity. I am sure various sources give different titles, but at this date none will be original. Johnbod (talk) 01:52, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. This is the title of the painting, as listed in Uffizi gallery, and as referred to apparently almost everywhere per WP:COMMONNAME. Whether she was a duchess or not, or whether she is even depicted, doesn't really matter. Those details can be explained in the text of the article. Walrasiad (talk) 07:53, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, at least online, the Uffizi call it "The Duke and Duchess of Urbino: Federico da Montefeltro and Battista Sforza". For older paintings, titles are given by curators and quite often changed. Talking about the "correct title" is inappropriate. I'm dubious about your WP:COMMONNAME argument, for which you give no evidence. The first google books reference with Montefeltro calls it: Battista Sforza and Federico da Montefeltro, presumably working left to right. This is also used by the very standard Gardner's Art Through the Ages. An Oxford University Press monograph calls it "Diptych of Federico da Montefeltro and Battista Sforza". This not very specialized source calls it Federico da Montefeltro and Battista Sforza. And so on. Johnbod (talk) 12:25, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not deep or systematic evidence. Just did a casual google search for Piero della Francesca, without specifying any particular name for the portrait, and this title came up most frequently, even in specialized art sites. It's the Uffizi's title, and seems to be the title most people are aware of. Remember our audience is general. So as far as WP:RECOGNIZABILITY is concerned, it looms quite larger than the alternative. We can add all the qualifications needed in the text, but most people will likely be looking for this title, not any other. Have you thought about writing to Uffizi and asking them to change their title? Walrasiad (talk) 20:31, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No! Johnbod (talk) 22:13, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You should try. A little while back, I got the museum of Naples and the Australian National Museum to change the titles of two of their paintings as listed on their websites. If you send an e-mail with the evidence, it could work. It might take a couple of weeks, but they don't want things to be listed wrong. Walrasiad (talk) 02:13, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To add: it was practically impossible to find titles which started by called it Diptych of.... So even if I were inclined to adjust the title something like some of your sources use (e.g. I could go for a compromise Duke of Urbino Federico da Montefeltro and Battista Sforza, which at least retains "Duke of Urbino" in the title for recognizability), the nominated title above (with "Diptych of") is much too awkward for a general audience. Walrasiad (talk) 20:53, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't buy that "someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area" (WP:RECOGNIZABILITY) would only recognize the work from a title that includes the phrase "Duke of Urbino" and not from one that gives the names Federico da Montefeltro and Battista Sforza. Someone familiar with the painting is at least as likely to have come across Federico's name as his title, and would recognize the term "diptych". The construction "Duke of Urbino Federico da Montefeltro" is more awkward than anything beginning "Diptych of". Ham II (talk) 07:33, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt even experts in the topic remember that name off the top of their heads. But they will likely recognize "Duke of Urbino", since it is referred to as that in many places (however narrowly inaccurate you may believe it is by dating precision). It is worth retaining in the title. "Diptych" is just a technical term, not a generally known one. I'd avoid it. Walrasiad (talk) 15:44, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'd expect better from experts! The Grove Dictionary of Art says that Federico "may have invested more money in [artistic and architectural] patronage than any other Italian ruler of his day". [1] The same article refers to this artwork as "the double portrait of Federigo da Montefeltro and Battista Sforza", and in an image caption simply as "Federigo da Montefeltro and Battista Sforza". The Grove's article on Piero has "the candid double portrait of Federigo da Montefeltro and his wife Battista Sforza". Piero's entry in the Oxford Dictionary of the Renaissance: "the portraits of Federico II da Montefeltro and his countess Battista Sforza". No Duke and Duchess of Urbino in sight in those sources, and ditto for the Oxford Dictionary of Art and Oxford Companion of Western Art . Ham II (talk) 08:40, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support as apparently more accurate. Usage in sources varies, and there isn't a single correct title. To the variations Johnbod has noted I could add Portrait of Federico da Montefeltro and his Wife Battista Sforza (from the Benezit Dictionary of Artists), and in the one book on the artist I've got to hand it's called the Uffizi Diptych. Ham II (talk) 08:26, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I could live with "Portrait of ....", certainly. Johnbod (talk) 22:13, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose Sources don't appear to use the proposed title [2][3][4][5][6]--Spekkios (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

3 and 5 don't actually give a "title" but a description - 4 is sub-only, & none are exactly RS. Do any use the current titile? Johnbod (talk) 02:07, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, I was fairly lazy with those examples. --Spekkios (talk) 03:32, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support It's more accurate.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 14:08, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose nom, fine with "Portrait of the Duke and Duchess of Urbino". Ceoil (talk) 14:42, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]