Talk:Death of Jeremiah Duggan/Archive 3

Baroness Symons has nothing whatsoever to do with my website. I had to learn from scratch how to do it. I have not had any help from Baroness Symons except she appointed a very high level Barrister who wrote out his opinion on the case. He stated that the German authorities are in breach of article 2 of the Human RIghts act which places an obligation on the State to preserve life and this means that even though we cannot restore Jeremiah to life the state is legally obliged to fully investigate his death. This means involvement of the next of kin, forensic evidence, full investigation with impartial witness statements ect. It may be convenient for the LaRouche conspiracist theorists to think that I take orders from Baroness Symons but that is their way of scapegoating.They should learn to stop making up fantasies and tell the truth. I am deeply wounded by their lies about me saying my son had psychological problems. He did not have. Any problem he did or did not develop he developed because of what was done to him at the conference. I accept that they like to delude themselves and others with simplistic world views. I can see how these conspiracist theories are the dangerous forerunners of all holocausts in the past - something they keep telling us will happen even though their views are actually creating that which they tell us to fear. They therefore warn against that which they then set off to creating the possiblities. Anyway one thing I think even they cannot lie about is the fact that I made my own website and Baroness Symons unfortunately has helped me not one jot. Why lie all the time and create Hate figures. Because people are duped.

Another corrections: IT WAS THE BRITISH POLICE NOT THE GERMAN POLICE WHO SAID GO NOWHERE NEAR THESE PEOPLE but I think they just thought around the Frankfurt area there are a lot of dangerous terrorist type groups. I do not know if the policeman knew of LaRouche.

I have this week complained to Parliamentarians in Westminster that Baroness Symons has to really do much more to help me because I want to have my sons death investigated. This is a normal wish of any mother who loses her son in totally unexpected circumstance. The way the LaRouche people have refused to speak to me and spread articles about Jeremiah completely defaming the dead and disregarding our feelings of having lost a very precious beloved son demonstrate to all the world the total inhumanity and heartlessness and guilt of the LaRouche movement. Why were they not sending me condolences and trying to help me uncover what happened? What were they so afraid I would find out?

Note to LaRouche apologist. LaRouche is a crook, a cult leader, an antisemite, a small time Hitler, and a lunatic. LaRouche can deny this, but scholars, jounalists, and courts have demonstrated that these criicisms are fair. Wiki should report his denial, but there is no need to balance these charges other than that. --Cberlet 01:59, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I am no LaRouche "apologist." I find him to be an interesting figure, who I agree with on some things and disagree with on others. Consider me impartial, unlike the fanatics in either the pro-LaRouche or anti-LaRouche camps. I am interested in all articles on wikipedia, including LaRouche-related articles, being as fair and truthful as possible. I don't see how the following sentence is objectionable: "LaRouche denies this, and it should be noted that his conspiracy theories center on powerful non-Jewish leaders and that many important members of and allies of the LaRouche movement are Jewish." It is valid to mention that LaRouche has been criticized as anti-Semitic. We should not only report his denial, but also that much objective evidence backs up his denial. Many important Jewish members belong to his movement. He has had many important Jewish supporters (see Norbert Brainin for instance). Should these truths be hidden to readers seeking the most impartial information about LaRouche possible? If we accepted any "court decision" (could you cite the exact two verdicts that have ruled LaRouche to be an anti-Semite, by the way?) as the end of story, we couldn't make mention of evidence contradicting court decisions in many other important non-LaRouche cases (for instance, someone could argue, "Sacco and Vanzetti were convicted, and many journalists agreed. Wiki should report their denials, but there is no need to balance these charges other than that."

Do not let your hatred of LaRouche make you lose sight of the importance of maintaining a fair, objective database. I'm not sure if people using the terms Cberlet is using are the best ones to maintain an objective article on a subject they feel such passionate anger towards. Wikipedia is not a soapbox. G.Leibniz 02:57, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

One deceased Jewish supporter does not count as "many". This is not an article about LaRouche's antisemitism, which is amply covered in other articles. -Willmcw 03:18, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

G.Leibniz, you say you're interested in many other articles in Wikipedia, not just LaRouche ones, yet LaRouches ones are all you have edited. You should be aware that two arbitration committee rulings have determined that editors may not act in a way that appears to promote LaRouche propaganda, and may be banned if they are found to have done so. You may want to read Wikipedia:No original research, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, and Wikipedia:Cite sources. These will jointly tell you that we're not allowed to insert our own opinions, unless we can back them up with reputable sources; that the majority published view should be prioritized over minority views; and that tiny-minority views like LaRouche's have no place in Wikipedia, except in the case of offering rebuttal to allegations, as here, where his denials are included in the introduction. This article perfectly reflects what has been published in the mainstream press about the case, and about LaRouche in general, and what was said in court. That's what we do here: we reflect what others say. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 03:23, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

Well hello all, this is my first ever posting, so please forgive any mistakes concerning the exact editing on Wikipedia. My main comment is to SlimVirgin. There is this thing that I wonder, regardless of what is written about LaRouche, and so from this point on I leave him and all others out. You seem not to want to represent truth but write popular opinion on here. Am I correct? Would you defend someone on here or in real life, if they were standing up for the truth and you knew it? What the majority thinnks.... I presume you are an american, and thefore know that the founding fathers specifically designed a system of government, whereby a parliamentary dictatorship was not possible without first destroying the US constitution. Now this point might be clear, I proceed. This was done, because the majority are not always right, and have done some very stupid things in the name of democracy and / or public opinion. Socrates was murdered by the democratic party of athens, for instance. There are many more examples of this, but I need not cite them right now. An answer would be appreciated. Also, are you a main moderator of this site? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:nemesis1981

James

This looks like an interesting challenge.

{{POV}}

SlimVirgin, you just reverted my edit where I corrected many inaccuracies in the "LaRouche Movement" section. If you say that they weren't inaccuracies, you should practice what you preach and back your edits up with reputable sources. --BirdsOfFire 20:06, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hi BoF, in my view you introduced inaccuracies, rather than correcting them, and a pro-LaRouche POV. For example, to say that the LaRouche movement is regarded as a fringe political cult by only its critics is absurd, because it is very widely regarded as such. As this article has been stable for a long time, would you mind explaining each of the changes you want to make, and supplying a source for them on the talk page? The sources for the current contents are on the page. If you feel something is inaccurate, by all means post it here, and ask for a source, but please be very specific. Many thanks, SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:25, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It is not "pro-LaRouche POV." I notice in the discussion on this page that whenever anyone questions what you have written you accuse them of being "pro-LaRouche." I have seen the LaRouche movement called a cult, but more often I see expressions like "maverick Democrat," etc. I think that this article should avoid being biased in either direction. The policies that you attribute to LaRouche are distorted and inaccurate. For example, according to the quote in "Political views of Lyndon LaRouche," LaRouche said The Beatles were "a product shaped according to British Psychological Warfare Division specifications." In this article, it says "The Beatles were controlled by British intelligence." That's not the same thing. Do you have a quote to justify it? --BirdsOfFire 00:05, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Bof, is this your only objection, or do you have others? It would be helpful if you could list them, then I can look for sources all at once, though I hope you'll check first that the sources aren't already on the page. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:17, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Why yes, the other things I changed in my edit that you reverted. "LaRouche publications have alleged that the British royal household is involved in the international drug trade" -- they don't say that. They say that the British banks that were set up during the Opium Wars, like the Hong Kong and Shanghai Bank, have continued to launder money up to the present day. And "rogue elements within the U.S. military were instrumental in causing the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks" -- I read their pamphlet on that at the time. They said that there had to be elements within the U.S. security establishment, which is not the same as the military although it could be, that had to have been complicit in disabling normal US defenses against such an attack, which does not mean they caused it. It seems that you want to slightly exaggerate all of the LaRouche claims to make the articles main theme, the "mind control" theory, more believable. I hate to be the one to break the news but even if LaRouche was totally demonic the "mind control" theory would still be pretty far fetched. --BirdsOfFire 14:24, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In some cases, the statements in controversy reflect earlier claims by LaRouche, that the group has rewritten to avoid criticism. The LaRouche group frequently denies statements made in the past. For example, the full quote in context on the Beatles:

"The Beatles had no genuine musical talent, but were a product shaped according to British Psychological Warfare Division (Tavistock) specifications, and promoted in Britain by agencies which are controlled by British intelligence."

"Why Your Child Became A Drug Addict" Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr., Campaigner Special Report, Copyright 1978

So the aspect of being controlled by British Intelligence is in the original quote. Please be aware that much of the material published by the LaRouche group--especially about itself--is unreliable. --Cberlet 16:02, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have no problem with using the original quote. It's different than what is in the article. You can distort a quote by oversimplifying it. Since there seems to be quite a bit of this going on in all these LaRouche articles, I think the best policy would always be to use direct quotes. --BirdsOfFire 16:25, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Quotes are good on occasion, but in an encyclopedia the information should be summarized. So it is usually better to restate the content of quotations, and provide the citation if necessary. -Willmcw 17:16, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Note to BirdsOfFire: In several instances on various LaRouche-related pages you have called for cites and facts when they already exist, in some cases on the same page, just lower in the article. It is appropriate to demand cites. It is not appropriate to demand cites when they already exist.--Cberlet 18:23, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, I am concerned that the opinions that are attributed to LaRouche be accurate -- that is in the best interests of Wikipedia. I have seen a bit of spin doctoring going on. If you have a direct quote, there can be no suspicion of monkey business. --BirdsOfFire 20:05, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Chip, thank you for finding those citations. BirdsofFire, we can't quote every single time we want to attribute an opinion to LaRouche. Perhaps you could explain what you see as the substantive difference between (1) "The Beatles ... were a product shaped according to British Psychological Warfare Division (Tavistock) specifications, and promoted in Britain by agencies which are controlled by British intelligence" and (2) "The Beatles were controlled by British intelligence." SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:21, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The citation for "Queen pushing drugs" was not from LaRouche, just some guy repeating a bogus story. That is irresponsible. The other citations are good citations, but the problem is, they don't correspond to what the article says. In fact, they correspond to what I said was the more accurate way to summarize what LaRouche said. I will change the summaries to match the quotes. I hope you will not object -- the summary should honestly reflect what is in the cited source. --BirdsOfFire 20:27, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I object, and disagree with your claims. Please discuss here.--Cberlet 20:47, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Information in Wikipedia is supposed to be veriable. It looks like you have footnoted the "Queen of England" claim to various essays you have written, so that no one can check your sources without purchasing a pamplet or something. You have also replaced the misleading summaries of the other claims, summaries that do not at all match the sources you cite. I hope that the reader will take the trouble to read the cites, in order to discover that your summaries are misleading, but that is not the way Wikipedia is supposed to work. What is your objection to the more accurate summaries I put in? You didn't post it here, you just reverted.

I have looked at the "LaRouche says the Queen pushes drugs" claim in the past, and it appears to be an urban legend. LaRouche denies having said it: "It is relevant to point to one relevant example of mass-media brainwashing. Most readers have heard the news-media babbling: "He [LaRouche] says, 'The Queen pushes drugs.' " In fact, I did not say that; that quote was a fraud, manufactured, in 1982, by the Chicago division of NBC-TV News. Later, beginning an NBC-TV broadcast of March 1984, that fraudulent quote was repeated, over and over again, by all of the mass media, through 1988, until millions of American TV viewers became so thoroughly brainwashed, that many of them said, even to my face, that they, personally, heard me say exactly those words, on TV: it simply never happened.[[1]]" Now since you, Chip Berlet, have an entire website that seems to be devoted to the "LaRouche is Satan" theme, and you have archives of LaRouche quotes going back to the 70s, it seems to me that you ought to have just one little quote somewhere, from LaRouche himself, where he says the queen pushes drugs.

Your reluctance to back up your claims about LaRouche with quotes from him or his movement, rather than quotes from yourself or your collaborators, makes me suspicious of all the claims in this article, and it is probably safe to assume that anyone who has read even a few articles by the LaRouche organization is also going to be like, "Yeah, right." This is not in the best interests of Wikipedia. So, the neutrality and accuracy dispute tag should remain in place. --BirdsOfFire 14:27, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This is apparently going to come as a shock, but serious research and scholarship does not begin and end on the Internet. LaRouche regularly denies saying things or writing things for which there is a public record. The NBC-TV broadcast--over which he sued and lost--discussed the LaRouchite theory claiming the continued control of the global drug trade by the British Royal Family (including the Queen). This was the original thesis of the LaRouchite book, Dope, Inc. --Cberlet 14:42, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I have read Dope, Inc. which is precisedly why I was suspicious of the whole "Queen pushes drugs" routine, because that is not what the book says. Your claim that it is the "original thesis" of the book suggests to me that either you haven't read it, or that you are trying to pull the wool over my eyes, and over the rest of the Wikipedia readers as well. Is this what you call "serious research and scholarship"? --BirdsOfFire 14:59, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

What edition are you reading? It makes a difference.--Cberlet 15:20, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that a simple quote from any edition that says the Queen pushes drugs would end the debate. From what I have seen, Cberlet is often evasive when he is asked to provide verifiable sources for his claims. I have been reading up on Chip Berlet and Political Research Associate, and may political activists do not trust them. For example, Online Journal Associate Editor Larry Chin charged that "Berlet is a gatekeeper who has made a career out of slandering and attacking whistleblowers, researchers and critics of the US government, of every political affiliation."[2]

Otherwise, I don't get it. BirdsOfFire says that this version is inaccurate:

• LaRouche publications have alleged that the British royal household is involved in the international drug trade; that rogue elements within the U.S. military were instrumental in causing the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks; that The Beatles were controlled by British intelligence;

...and that this version would be acceptable:

• LaRouche publications have alleged that the financial institutions that arose in the heyday of the British Empire are involved in the international drug trade; that rogue elements within the U.S. security establishment were involved in causing the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks; that The Beatles were "shaped" by British intelligence;

Why are SlimVirgin and Cberlet so adamant about keeping the disputed version? --NathanDW 17:38, 2 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why is info on 'LaRouche movement' even in this article? It should be referenced in its own article. The first three or four paragraphs are peripheral, and a link to the LaRouche Movement page itself would suffice. There is no need to include the whole thing inside this article. --B.ellis 14:26, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm surprised that SlimVirgin could forget so quickly that the "neutrality and facts disputed" was put there by BirdsOfFire. I too am interested to hear how Cberlet and SlimVirgin will respond to BirdsOfFire's objections. I think that B.ellis also has a point. --NathanDW 01:52, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What is in there is sourced. BoF seems to want us to remove sourced material. Any suggestion for removing a POV tag must be actionable within our policies. The policies don't say that sourced and relevant material can be removed, so it looks like a misuse of the tag. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:00, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the recent posts on this page. What BirdsOfFire said -- and I agree -- is that the claims in the article do not match what the sources say. It appears that the editors are twisting the source material, which is certainly a violation of neutrality and factual accuracy. Also, the "Queen pushes drugs" source is not satisfactory -- it is a commentator making a claim with no evidence. If an opinion is being attributed to LaRouche, it should be verifiable according to Wikipedia policy. --NathanDW 01:47, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I concur with B.ellis. There is too much on the LaRouche Movement here, while it is relevant to the article there is no point including it in detail here when it should be detailed on other pages in wiki like Political views of Lyndon LaRouche. The first 4 paragraphs should be condensed to a smaller explanation with appropiate links. Discordance 01:36, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

SlimVirgin, I have been waiting patiently for 18 days for you to respond to my last post, and then today you unilaterally removed the disputed tag. You should participate in the discussion before making changes. However, I believe that B.ellis and Discordance are right, and the consensus is to simply link the article to "Political Views," where the representation of LaRouche has fewer misrepresentations. --NathanDW 01:37, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You are so totally wrong about this. There are a handful of people who are fanatic LaRouche supporters. The rest of the world thinks of him as a lunatic. A few call him a fascist. He is a convicted crook. Sanitizing reality is not acceptable.--Cberlet 02:16, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

While I agree that LaRouche is all of those things I do not agree removing those paragraphs is sanitising this page, this page is full of repeated information on the LaRouche movement I do think the reader needs to read this information to better understand this article but the information does not belong here it belongs in other articles. Discordance 09:33, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think moving that LaRouche movement infobox up into the section on the LaRouche movement and writing a paragraph explaining the relevance and importance of reading those pages is a far more wikipedic solution. Discordance 13:25, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This page makes little sense without an adequate summary of who LaRouche is and what his movement is about. A reasonable edit is one thing. But LaRouche proponents spend much time on Wikipedia trying to sanitze every article that mentions LaRouche, and plop LaRouche text into many other articles. We can all try to summarize in an accurate and NPOV way. I did not think that was done in recent edits.--Cberlet 15:09, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes sorry to clarify my view the paragraphs should not have been removed and left with empty space, they should have been replaced with a more compact summary. Discordance 15:41, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The page was fine as it was. There are people interested in this who won't necessarily want to have to wade through the LaRouche articles to find out more about LaRouche. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:38, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse me, but it was not fine as it was. The objections of BirdsOfFire were that your assertions about LaRouche's ideas do not match the sources that Cberlet put in, supposedly as documentation. The claims in the article should match what is in the cited sources, and they do not. And beyond that, you and Cberlet have stonewalled and refused to address this in the discussion. Until you address it, the dispute announcement should remain. --NathanDW 06:13, 28 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am unsure if this article deserves a disputed tag but not compacting the summary leaves it open to criticism like this even if it does portray wikipedia's view of LaRouche accurately it shouldn't give so many details because its forking the information and bringing itself into question whether just or not. The reader should have to go to other articles to get additional imformation, there should be some here but I think we should be pointing readers to sections in other articles that convey the same information. Discordance 14:40, 28 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

When we try to summarize the majority view of LaRouche, we are told that there is no documentation for the charges. When we add documentation, we are told that there is too much detail or that the documentation is insufficient. What has not been documented? That LaRouche is a lunatic? That he is a crook? That he is an antisemite? That some consider him a fascist? That the group has been called a political cult? That LaRouche is a raging homophobe? What is not adequately sourced?--Cberlet 05:37, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You say in the article that LaRouche believes "that rogue elements within the U.S. military were instrumental in causing the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks." I read all three of the links that you put in as documentation, and none of them says anything even close to that. You also say that LaRouche says in "Dope, Inc." that the Queen of England is involved in the drug trade, but the links are not to "Dope, Inc." -- they are to articles by you and Dennis King. You were asked to provide a quote, any quote, from LaRouche, saying that the Queen of England is involved in the drug trade, and you have not done so. And as BirdsOfFire pointed out a month ago, you have taken a quote where LaRouche says that the Beatles were promoted by agencies that are controlled by British intelligence, and twisted it to claim that he said "the Beatles were controlled by British intelligence." When BirdsOfFire tried to correct these things to make them more accurate, you reverted his edit. It looks to me like you are using propaganda techniques. --NathanDW 16:20, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You appear to be unable to grasp the concept of a summary. A summary looks at a block of text and reduces it to its essence. LaRouche's essays and LaRouchite material is often a mass of convoluted crackpot conspiratorial conclusions. If it takes many paragraphs for the LaRouchites to claim that A controls B which controls C which controls D; it is legitimate to simply state that LaRouche believes A controls D.--Cberlet 16:36, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I just rechecked the cites for the "rogue agents" sentence. The sentence is entirely fair and NPOV given the cited text. I invite others to read the underlying cites and see for themselves.--Cberlet 16:40, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

For the september 11th attack and the beatles i think we should be pointing the reader here: Political_views_of_Lyndon_LaRouche#Theories_of_conspiracies. with a sentence like: Lyndon LaRouche believes in a number of conspiracy theories regarded as baseless theories by all but LaRouchites and other conspiracy theorists, see the following section for details on those beliefs. My sentence is a little POV and needs reworking but that section has that information in. Discordance 18:36, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is obvious that CBerlet is extremely POV and sees this issue as a completely black-and-white, cut-and-dry case of CBerlet being right and everyone else being wrong. Chip also resorts on several occasions to a slew of name-calling such as "fascist, homophobe, lunatic, anti-semite" etc ... I'm not sure if Wikipedia has a policy about this, but I also think that Chip Berlet contributing information about LaRouche is a conflict of interest since Chip has been a primary in the anti-LaRouche crowd --which is also a minority, I find, in that most people don't feel one way or another about LaRouche, and the people who are vehemently angry about him are probably less than those that actually support him, though I don't have any factual data to back this up, only personal experience -- which is skewed towards a younger demographic as well, as I'm in my early '20s and most of the people I talk to about LaRouche are of a similar age. But, in my personal experience, the anti-LaRouche people are in an even smaller minority than the pro-LaRouche camp. But, back to the topic of a conflict of interest: The reason I feel it's a conflict of interest is that Chip Berlet has been publically involved in a conflict with LaRouche for many years. Again, perhaps Wikipedia care about conflicts of interest. But, Chip Berlet editing pages about Lyndon LaRouche is basically equivalent to members of CSISOP editing pages on crop circles -- they have already made up their mind to have a 100% POV black-and-white mentality, and are absolutely at odds with any neutral, realistic representation of a situation. When an editor has been a leading proponent of 1 side of a debate which has continued for 10+ years (I'm not sure exactly when Berlet began to lead the anti-LaRouche crusade but it was at least 10 years ago), it is obvious that said editor will only offer a 1-sided, POV contribution to the article, and that because of the editor's vested interest (promoting themselves through promoting this 1-sided argument), they would always have an incentive (even a financial one) in maintaining their viewpoint at the cost of neutrality.

No, Wikipedia does not have a "conflict of interest" policy. Instead of policies that address the personalities or biases of editors, our policies address the edits themselves. In particular, we rely on WP:Neutral point of view, WP:No original research, and WP:Verifiability in order to keep our articles free from bias. So please do focus on the contributions, not the contributor. Thanks, -Will Beback 22:27, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

From History -- "5 January 2006 Sean Black ("struck by cars" is terribly akward)"

Well, no, apparently it isn't.

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22struck+by+cars%22 = about 10,500 hits for "struck by cars".

We need to say in the intro here what he actually died of (being struck by cars), since "running down the middle of a busy road" is not generally in and of itself fatal. "He was killed" is not acceptable, since it strongly implies that he was deliberately killed, which is POV.

I'm fixing this for the time being. If you have a problem, please justify here in the Discussion. -- 200.141.105.210 04:46, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Current version of this -- "died after being hit by several cars while running down the middle of a busy road" -- is fine by me. -- 200.141.105.210 05:09, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The back and forth over this sentence is silly. He "was killed" doesn't imply it was deliberate, and was killed while or after "running down the middle of a busy road" makes it very obvious that he was hit by a car. Not every single obvious point needs to be spelled out when writing a story. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:36, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Cberlet has still not provided the documentation for the "Queen in dope trade" claim. He has not explained how altering the LaRouche quote from "The Beatles were promoted in Britain by agencies which are controlled by British intelligence" to "The Beatles were controlled by British intelligence" is a summary and not a distortion. And on the "US military did 9/11," he is simply stonewalling, saying that this is in the articles he links to, when those articles are about entirely different topics. --NathanDW 01:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is simply not true. I have cited sources and fairly summarized that material.--Cberlet 04:25, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If we summarised like I suggested this dispute wouldnt be spilling out onto other pages it could be kept on the main LaRouche pages, I really do not like the repeated information it is highly similar, that is unacceptable, WP is not paper there is no need for this forking. If NathanDW has issue with what is said on Political_views_of_Lyndon_LaRouche#Theories_of_conspiracies he should be discussing it on that article, in fact that article says about the beatles "a product shaped according to British Psychological Warfare Division specifications" he has a point that these are horribly forked. Discordance 13:20, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This page is not "horribly forked." That is pure hyperbole. There are a handful of paragraphs that explain why the ideas and fear of conspiracies within the LaRouche movement are connected to the incident involving the death of Duggan. LaRouche supporters are a constant source of disruption on Wikipedia. Trying to collaboratively edit with them is like trying to pick blueberries with a bear.--Cberlet 14:59, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The sentences in the 3rd and 4th paragraphs convey as much information as the other page does in a marginally different manner that is a fork, the page should not do that, dont start talking about hyperbole. I think the 4 paragraphs can be compacted in a npov way but im going to go work on some other articles instead its not really that big a deal i was only trying to find something you and nathan would be happy with. Unwatching the talk. Discordance 21:26, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am skeptical of LaRouche, which is why I looked him up on Wikipedia, but after seeing what is on Wikipedia, I am more skeptical of LaRouche's critics. It looks like you are now calling me a LaRouche supporter, which seems to be what you do whenever you are in a dispute.

You say that these paragraphs "explain why the ideas and fear of conspiracies within the LaRouche movement are connected to the incident involving the death of Duggan." This doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. This is "original research," this is you trying to make a case for your theory, and explains why you need to "tweak" the quotes from LaRouche, to make them more wacky to build your case. --NathanDW 16:24, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, you have misunderstood and mis-stated what I said and what I meant. It is not original research when it is cited to reputable published source material.--Cberlet 18:51, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to point out that it is highly suspicious that after every statement of fact there is a following response by people associated with LaRouche and his groups. They should not be allowed any credebility since they are the ones whose credibility is being questioned. I AM NOT SAYING that we need to eliminate these responses, but this information should not be presented as fact in light of the situation. I reccommend consolidating all statements made by LaRouche's groups into a section titles "response from larouche movement" or something similar. --sorbix 01:58, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

They have no credibility here, a policy enforced by wikipedia's enforcing policy body the arbcom and enacted and vigiled by admins such as SlimVirgin, SqueakBox 02:09, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

LaRouche is right. And since when does the average anti-semite hitler cult leader get his own smear campaign? Ahem. --Kanliot 16:44, 21 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Jonathan Tennenbaum blaming the Jews? Jonathan Tennenbaum is Jewish. Does this mean he is an anti-semitic Jew? Or could this be a bullshit slander against him? Is there proof that at this conference LaRouche blamed the Jews? or is this just the same old slander? Listen to LaRouche yourselves and decide. All webcasts, most seminars, all cadre school discussions are recorded on MP3. --http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Nemesis1981

Can that be true? Can it also be true that Jeffrey Steinberg is also Jewish, as many other leading names in the LaRouche organisations? My god, then the fact that the leading members of the LaRouche organisation are Jewish could only mean one thing. What that is I do not know. I will ask Wikipedia. --89.62.102.62 16:35, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• LaRouche and his movement consistently condemn anti-Semitism in their published writings and statements.[3]

The linked article does not condemn anti-Semitism. Here is all it says directly about Jewish issues:

• To that same end, the President of France, the scientist-grandson of Lazare Carnot, was assassinated on June 24, 1894, and, in a related development, to the same purpose, the fraudulent charges and conviction, reeking of anti-Semitism, of France's Captain Alfred Dreyfus, were perpetrated on December 22, 1894.
• Kissinger's 1975 policy, in NSSM-200, toward Africa, like his close association with dictator Pinochet and the Nazi international spin-offs' role in "Operation Condor," must be matched ironically with his references to himself as a Jewish victim of Hitler's "holocaust." He is a true follower of the model of Thrasymachus adopted by Professor Leo Strauss and his "neo-conservative" followers.

Pointing out that the Dreyfus Affair reeked of anti-Semitism isn't a codemnation. Referring to the "'holocaust'" in "scare quotes" is consistent with other comments about the validity of the Holocaust. So this reference actually seems to contradict the assertion that "LaRouche and his movement consistently condemn anti-Semitism". -Will Beback · † · 06:12, 3 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Operation Condor" and "Neo-conservative" are also in "scare quotes." Do you take this to mean that LaRouche doubts the existence of Operation Condor and Neo-conservatives? --Tsunami Butler 06:41, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Jewish

It is really poor to identify him as a Jew when his last name clearly shows he is half-jewish at most. Tommypowell 14:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How does his name show any such thing?--Runcorn 17:13, 10 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, maybe that is a poor choice of words. It is well known that his father is non-Jewish.Tommypowell 12:54, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There are plenty of sources that Jeremiah Duggan was Jewish. What his father might be is irrelevant. Please see WP:V and WP:NOR.--Runcorn 22:07, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't add the statement about condemning antiSemitism without an accurate source. Grace Note 06:59, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The fact is that LaRouche publications never mention anti-Semitism without putting it in a pejorative context. I will try to find numerous sources when I have time, sometime in the next few days, but to allow the implication to stand that LaRouche and his associates endorse or even tolerate anti-Semitism is a violation of WP:BLP. --NathanDW 02:06, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Can we point out exactly where in this text [4] "LaRouche and his movement" condemn anti-Semitism? I asked this same question in December and this is the same source back again, with no reply to my question. If this is the best we can do then there's no way we can say make this assertion. -Will Beback · † · 03:40, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Here, I can google as well as the next person. LaRouche writes, "Religious and racial hatred, such as anti-Semitism, or hatred against Islam, or, hatred of Christians, is, on record of known history, the most evil expression of criminality to be seen on the planet today." [5] That should be sufficient. --Tsunami Butler 15:30, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. --NathanDW 21:00, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In any case, none of this has anything to do with Duggan, nor is it a comment on what Duggan's mother said. Wikipedia articles do not carry rebuttals of the views they report people as having stated. If the statement is of the kind "X said Y considered the world to be Z", then including a rebuttal of Y's considering the world to be Z does not go to balancing or discussing what X said, and is not to be included. (It is excluded by the policy on original research, which does not permit the creation of theses or arguments.) If LaRouche had commented on what Duggan's mother had said, this would possibly have been valid for inclusion. Please don't reinsert this material unless you can show how it is connected to X, not to Y's beliefs about Z. Grace Note 05:08, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Also, see SlimVirgin's talkpage for more on this subject. Grace Note 05:18, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The LaRouche movement's statements about antisemitism are irrelevant here unless discussed in terms of the Jeremiah Duggan case. If they're not discussed within that context, then adding them to this article is an example of original research; please see this section of the NOR policy. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 05:32, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I believe I am following your logic here. But let me ask you this: in this section we find the usual litany of accusations of anti-Semitism by Chip Berlet. If the rebuttal quote were placed in that section, would it be OR? Or on the other hand, are the accusations by Chip Berlet OR, because they do not refer specifically to the Duggan case? --Tsunami Butler 06:41, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's a section giving some background on the LaRouche movement, and it does include "Its members insist these allegations are misrepresentations ..." but if you feel that's not enough, you could add your quote about antisemitism there. What you can't do is add it to rebut what Mrs. Duggan said, which is how it was being used (writing from memory). SlimVirgin ^(talk) 07:31, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. --Tsunami Butler 15:38, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Five paragraphs of this article were devoted to a supposedly journalistic account of Jeremiah Duggan's state of mind, alleged mental illness, the kindness of the LaRouchians to his mother, etc. The source of this information, EIR, LaRouche's weekly newsmagazine, is not recognized by Wikipedia as a legitimate source for anything except showing the state of mind and ideas of the LaRouchians. It is not a legitimate news publication. Jeffrey Steinberg, LaRouche's longtime security chief, is not a legitimate journalist. If the LaRouchians wish to insert their trash talk about Jeremiah they must properly source it. I am deleting all information sourced to Steinberg's EIR article.--Dking 18:03, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Grow up Dennis. Your government recognises EIR as a legimate source, so much so that they have a regular seat at the Whitehouse press briefings. Now, people only need to read Travesty to know who you are. I say nothing except that I think it is you that is not the legitimate source, not EIR. I would ask you to prove your claims that Jeff Steinberg's article is not a proper source. --89.62.102.62 16:44, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wow! This brings back memories! In 1980 I was in New Hampshire, and there was a debate on the radio between Jeffrey Steinberg and Dennis King. I thought that this would be interesting, but sadly, it wasn't. Mr. Steinberg calmly made his points, and then Mr. King would just shriek like a banshee, so it never really went anywhere. --Don't lose that number 06:33, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is this interview still available? I would like to compare what the 2 had to say. I can download Mr Steinberg's work any time, so far as I know. I must check out Mr King's contribution to american politics. Mr King, maybe you could point me to some insightful material. What is this "Travesty"?

Thanks. --Ibykus prometheus 13:04, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Travesty was a book published in 1993 by the LaRouche movement. It is basically transcriptions of tape recorded conversations made by an FBI undercover operative named Doug Poppa, who infiltrated a gang of kidnappers associated with the Cult Awareness Network while "wearing a wire." He made clandestine recordings of meetings where plans were made to kidnap Louis Dupont Smith, a LaRouche activist from a prominent family. --Tsunami Butler 21:47, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I can't see any justification for this section belonging in the article as it stands, which is a biography of Jeremiah Duggan. This information already exists in the various LaRouche articles and does not need to be repeated here. Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Catchpole 22:57, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is also the case that the majority of external links are to attack articles about LaRouche. This is supposedly a biographical article about Jeremiah Duggan, so why all the links to the anti-LaRouche sites? --63.3.66.18 07:27, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WP:ATT and WP:BLP specifically prohibit the use of self-published third-party sources in support of biographical material about living persons. I have removed hearsay quotes attributed to Helga-Zepp LaRouche and Dr. Jonathan Tennenbaum that were sourced to the "Justice for Jeremiah website." There are probably further sourcing problems with this article. --Tsunami Butler 15:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

These have been published by newspapers and were discussed in court, so by all means re-source them instead of removing them. Otherwise people might suspect you were engaged in a WP:POINT. Also, one of the sources you removed was a law firm; the website was simply hosting the press release, which makes the website a convenience link, not a source. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:09, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"The burden of evidence for any edit on Wikipedia, but especially for edits about living persons, rests firmly on the shoulders of the person who adds or restores the material." -- WP:BLP. The press release may be used if it appeared in a mainstream secondary source. If did not, there's probably a good reason why it didn't, since it lookes defamatory to me. I won't revert for a few days, to give you the opportunity to find suitable sources (even though, under BLP, I should probably revert immediately.) --Tsunami Butler 22:17, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"The press release may be used if it appeared in a mainstream secondary source." Which policy do you take this from? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I misspoke. I meant a mainstream third-party source. I'm still getting used to the lingo.--Tsunami Butler 01:29, 9 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just in case my point isn't clear, anyone can issue a press release. I can issue a press release. But it shouldn't go into Wikipedia unless it has been published in a mainstream newspaper or comparable source. --Tsunami Butler 01:31, 9 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm glad you removed the one improperly sourced quote. Please find a proper source for the other one, or remove it also. WP:ATT and WP:BLP specifically prohibit the use of self-published third-party sources in support of biographical material about living persons. --Tsunami Butler 01:22, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's been two weeks and no source is forthcoming, so I removed the second quote under BLP. --Tsunami Butler 13:46, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The link http://www.justiceforjeremiah.com/inquest.html seems not to work. Is the material available elsewhere? Tom Harrison ^Talk 02:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The website was revised. I think I found the proper cite.--Cberlet 03:33, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

According to the Evening Standard, "Police concluded he had thrown himself into the traffic but they took no witness statements." See Hall, Allan (2006-12-06). "Germany to reopen case of cult death". The Evening Standard (London). Associated Newspapers Ltd. p. 21. {{cite news}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help) Since that seems to contradict the material above, we will need a citation to a reliable published source to support the statements about eyewitnesses. Tom Harrison ^Talk 03:06, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The transcript of the British inquest contains the story about Duggan being struck by two cars. Since there are clearly editors here who are pushing the POV that somehow Duggan's death was caused by the LaRouche movement (Cberlet as Chip Berlet was responsible for a lot of stuff on the Justice for Jeremiah website, and that would appear to be a problem under WP:COI,) I would like to ask that there be no attempt to brush the first scenario under the rug because it now conflicts with the new scenario. --Tsunami Butler 13:52, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fact check, please. I am responsible for very little of the Justice for Jeremiah website. Reporting the results of a forensic analysis by two different experts is hardly POV pushing. The new language makes it clear there is a dispute. I added the cite to the inquest page that mentioned the original conclusion of the German aythorities. So who is POV pushing here?--Cberlet 13:59, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You are. Now that one conspiracy theory has been supplanted by another, you would like to forget the first one and expunge it from the article. But both are sourced and should be covered, despite the fact that they contradict each other. --Tsunami Butler 21:30, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Does it say that the court heard from the witnesses? Or was it only the German police who interviewed the witnesses? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 13:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The transcript says it didn't hear eyewitness testimony, and that part of the problem is that the German police failed to take proper statements. Tsnami Butler, can you say why you added that thing about eyewitnesses? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 13:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It was a mistake which I have now corrected. --Tsunami Butler 21:30, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Someone has changed the spelling of this to Kramer, a spelling some of the newspapers use, but the LaRouche movement seems to use Cramer, [6] and they're more likely to know, I would guess. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 17:12, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I changed it after I got hits for Kramer but not Cramer, but you may be right. We should probably use the most authoritative, and maybe note the different spelling in the citation. Tom Harrison ^Talk 17:17, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, sounds good. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 17:20, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If it is Hartmut Cramer you are referring to, it is Cramer with a C, not a K. Normally with German, the K would be right. In this case it is different. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.163.66.171 (talk) 02:42, 31 March 2007 (UTC).-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned[reply]

I have just checked the article. What is going on? JD was beaten to death? Really? Did the German coroner say this? Was this a possibility? Could the German coroner have somehow missed this or been mistaken? Was JD not seen running in down the Berliner Strasse just before he died? Excuse my writing the WTF as the title of my bit, we all know what it means, but having followed this stuff over the last few years, my thoughts are really summarized by the question, WTF? Thank you to anyone who might enlighten me simply and shortly. --63.3.66.18 23:21, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article explains, or see here. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 04:02, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The press can't keep running the same story year after year, so they must invent newer and more fantastic versions of it to keep the thing going. --NathanDW 15:45, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This article is so retarded. I must ask people to answer the questions of other people seriously doubting the current story. Having read this, I must also ask if it is possible that the driver who hit JD was lying, therefore commiting a crime, conspiracy to commit murder (or something similar)? Are the German forensic pathologists unable to tell the difference between the injuries attained by being hit by a moving motor vehicle and being beaten to death with an instrument, blunt or otherwise? And I assume them not to be so blatantly incompetent that they could come up with such a conclusion as suicide, especially in such a high profile case (JD being Jewish and the LaRouche organisation being accused of being an anti-semitic cult), were not all evidence pointing to a suicide. So, if we rule out that the German coroner was incompetent, that the German authorities were incompetent, that leaves us with 2 possibilities, either the British "news"papers are lying, or Germany's police force is infested with people who hate Jews. Is there another possibility? What do people think? Maybe I too am a fool for not simply believing the newspapers. SlimVirgin, I ask you, since you have done much editing on this subject.

--Nemesis1981 17:29, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

People seem to be commenting without having read the article. According to the sources, the German's didn't do any forensic tests. They didn't conduct extensive interviewing of witnesses. They concluded it was suicide three hours after the incident. The case appears not to have been examined by a German coroner. Can I ask why people are posting here with questions without having read anything? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:38, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Having read the article in the Berliner Zeitung, I can say that it leaves a lot to be desired, and makes claims that are sufficient to discredit the writer. It is calling LaRouche the leader of a sect, a conspiracy cult, and claims that the BüSo claims to have the answer to everything. Now, if you read the article, and I presume you are fairly fluent in German, otherwise please say so, it is to be noted that the German authorities did everything they thought necessary in such a case, where they found no outside influence. Interesting. Now, I can quite happily argue over this piece of trash you call an article, which I call a slander job, and can pose enough questions that would then have to be answered, the real question is, do you want to know what really happened, or are you willing to settle with quoting newspapers as your source, ones who print unabashed slanders against a legitimate political party?

Just for all to know, all cadre schools are recorded, at least on audio, at least since 2004, and sometimes take some time to get on the net, and I know this because I have asked and found links to all these events, the classes on history, on science and some other stuff. Slim, have a listen and make a case for defending the indoctrination claim if you will. Explain to me also how the study of science and music, as can be seen from much work done by the LaRouche Youth Movement, available online, is to be considered indoctrination. This does not appear in the article, but the article, as most slander jobs, rely on people never going to the original source, or checking even if the information given by another source is true. Also, the previous questions remain. Were the drivers lying? What reason could they have had to lie? Do they then have a link to the Schiller Institute, assuming that the Schiller Institute is, as claimed on here and in the article, a sect or cult? Answer this stuff please. Otherwise I for one am not happy with the article. While JD's death was tragic, I still see no evidence of it being anything other than a suicide. Also, assuming that JD did suffer injuries and there were defensive marks on his body, it must first be determined where these injuries occurred. I don't know about Wiesbaden late at night, but I would not be wandering through certain areas of Berlin. That is all from me for now. My suggestion, however, since I think if we are to discuss this to its conclusion, it will fill a lot of space, which I get the impression might not be to your liking (correct me if I am wrong), so I would suggest opening up a further discussion page.
--Nemesis1981 20:16, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

SlimVirgin, in your comments here, you say that "the WorldNetDaily website, is perhaps okay for non-contentious material, but not for BLP criticism." Is it your view that the Berliner Zeitung is a more suitable source for BLP criticism? I note that in the past 24 hours you have filled this article with inflammatory cites from it. It appears to be held in low esteem since it was taken over by David Montgomery. Andrew Marr, former editor of the Independent, says of the new Berliner Zeitung that "Anyone who was working at The Independent in the mid to late Nineties will find all this wearisomely familiar. David's obsession at that time was removing as much traditional reporting as possible from the paper and turning it into a tabloid-style scandal sheet for yuppies."[7] --Tsunami Butler 07:02, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

When people start saying that Berliner Zeitung is an unreliable and biased source then it will be in the same league as WorldNetDaily. But just because someone criticizes the actions of the current editor at another paper ten years ago doesn't mean that the BZ is not a reliable source. LexisNexis says the paper reports in a "serious and competent fashion".[8] -Will Beback · † · 10:18, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

However, the fact that the paper is British-controlled is relevant to the article, since there is all this stuff about LaRouche being anti-British, and LaRouche saying that the British establishment is behind the various Duggan stories. (SlimVirgin asked in her edit summary, "what diff does that make? are you going to add who owns all the other media we use as sources?") --Don't lose that number 15:07, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop the LaRouche POV pushing. Who the owners of a newspaper are doesn't affect news content, at least not this kind, and what the nationality of the owners are even less so. It is LaRouche's POV that the British are out to get him, not the rest of the world's, so according to the rest of the world, that a British company owns that newspaper is irrelevant. This is the kind of nonsensical discussion we have to put a stop to on this and other LaRouche pages. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:28, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes it does affect the news reporting, even of this kind. Many examples in history can be found and cited if this discussion is allowed to ask what role the owner of newspaper makes to its reporting. Would you say that "Der Stürmer" could ever be considered a reliable news source for any event, whose outcome it was not in the owner's interest to reveal? And for those who do not know, Der Stürmer was a Nazi newspaper. I choose it as an extreme case to illustrate a point. --Nemesis1981 20:22, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, by all means find a source that says the Berliner Zeitung's ownership by Brits is affecting its LaRouche or related coverage, then we can add it. What you're currently arguing for is original research. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:24, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nice of you to respond so quick. Please explain why this is original research. Why should the ownership of a certain newspaper not affect the contents? Again we can come back to the statement above, "Who the owners of a newspaper are doesn't affect news content, at least not this kind, and what the nationality of the owners are even less so." Please provide evidence that this is so, otherwise the original questioning of the validity of the BZ article comes up. What do you say to my previous comment, placed at 20:22? --Nemesis1981 20:37, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the NOR policy. It's OR (your opinion) for you to say that who owns it is affecting its coverage of this issue. If you want to add that to the article, or imply it in any way, you need a reliable source. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:41, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The new editors should also read the various arbitration rulings that prohibit the use of LaRouche publications as sources except in limited circumstances. See Template:LaRouche Talk. In particular, look at LaRouche 1 proposed decision, LaRouche 2 proposed decision, and Nobs01 and others. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:41, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Something bothering you. I am not using LaRouche articles, I need not do so, nor have I mentioned them. I would again ask you to answer my question. I can read what wikipedia says, but we have established on many occasions that wikipedia is not based on truth, but on consensus, and I am asking you, not Wikipedia what you say to that comment. I have also noticed you changing a lot of LaRouche pages without any discussion. Interesting. This is not the issue for this page though. Answer my question please. If I want to hear meaningless jargon, I will talk to a fundamentalist Christian or BZ reporter. --Nemesis1981 20:54, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The edit in question draws no conclusions beyond saying that the ownership of the paper is "controversial," which is abundantly documented from the cited sources, both major newspapers. The "Original research" argument doesn't wash. --Tsunami Butler 21:07, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

From reading the listed sources and others it apears that the controversy is over foreign ownership, not British ownership in particular. I've changed to text to reflect that. -Will Beback · † · 22:19, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think that there is an error here. I don't believe that LaRouche was interviewed on "NewsNight" in 1980. I think that NewsNight is recycling the NBC interview from that year, which has an identical quote. --Don't lose that number 06:23, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It does say he told Newsnight the Queen was a drug dealer, so if it's an error, it isn't ours. What matters for our purposes is that he said it, whether to the BBC or NBC. Also, sometimes interviews are carried out on behalf of more than one news organization to save time and money. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 07:37, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The thing about the Berliner Zeitung is classic OR. We don't normally add information about a newspaper's ownership when we use it as a source. If this is regarded as relevant to the story, a reliable source must have said it is relevant. See WP:SYN: "Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article in order to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research." See WP:NOR for the whole policy. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:22, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

All right, then let's discuss the section, under "Duggan's death," called "Conference and cadre school." The clear implication here is that somehow the "Conference and cadre school" in some way caused Duggan's death. Is there a source which makes this claim? If so, it should be cited. The section is full of dubious (albeit published) characterizations of LaRouche's ideas. Exactly how is this germane to a biographical article on Jeremiah Duggan? Perhaps this article should be renamed "Conspiracy Theories about the death of Jeremiah Duggan." But another thing strikes me as odd: in the intro, it says: "Lyndon LaRouche has called the allegations a 'hoax.'" What allegations? They are not specified. I don't see any specific allegation that LaRouche or his movement actually caused the death of Duggan. It all seems to operate on the basis of implication. This would seem to be an excellent example of "a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position." I am adding the NPOV tag until this is resolved. --Tsunami Butler 14:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

First, please explain how the cadre school header implies that. Secondly, almost every single source that has written about this implies that it is somehow involved in his death, including the inquest. I don't know what LaRouche thinks is the hoax. We can only repeat what he says. It's as far from being a new synthesis as you can imagine, given that we reflect very accuractely what all the reliable sources are saying. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:08, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. So "almost every single source that has written about this implies that it is somehow involved in his death"? Does any source make a specific allegation? This appears to be a BLP issue -- Wikipedia should not be in the business of spreading innuendo. --Tsunami Butler 14:30, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This issue has been raised before, and it is high time that it be addressed. Every characterization of LaRouche or his movement that is not directly relevant to the subject of the article should be removed. "Implication" is not nearly good enough. Wikipedia is not a soapbox. --NathanDW 15:34, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I saw this article from a pointer on WP:AN/I discussing various blocks and bans, and I have some concerns about its neutrality. I think that the Wikipedia community may have reacted so strongly to LaRouchite POV pushers that articles on LaRouche-related subjects are actually slanted too far in the opposite direction now. I'm also struck by the difference between the respectful, almost-reverent tone of the articles on Ayn Rand and her fringe political movement, compared to the tone on Lyndon LaRouche and his fringe movement. The difference is especially unusual since Rand is dead and LaRouche is still alive, and WP:BLP encourages greater care when writing about living people.

• Weasel words: "The group is widely seen as a fringe political cult." Seen by whom? This kind of accusation should have a reliable source.
• "The movement has been associated in the mainstream media with violence against its political opponents, antisemitism, fraudulent use of political donations, aggressive recruiting techniques, and the dissemination of political conspiracy theories." There are four cites for this claim. One is a book by Helen Gilbert that is a dead link. The other three are by Wikipedia editors: Dennis King and Chip Berlet. Sourcing claims primarily to our own editors? Frankly, I don't think we'd allow this in any non-LaRouche article. King does have an actual published book, and it's appropriate to cite that, but does that count as "association in the mainstream media"? As for Berlet, I don't think we'd allow such marginal Web sources for negative accusations against any other living figure.
• LaRouche's prison term for tax evasion: Obviously relevant in his own article, but why is it relevant here?

I know there have been Arbcom decisions on the subject, but many of them predate WP:BLP. It should be noted that I carry no brief for LaRouche. He strikes me as a man who took some sensible ideas and some nutty ones, mixed them up, and used them to create a cult. But WP:NPOV must be followed on all articles, and I fear we have strayed from it on this subject too often. Crotalus horridus (TALK • CONTRIBS) 05:54, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Crotalus, there are multiple sources in the article that say the group is a political cult, so it's accurate to say "widely seen as ..." Ditto with the "associated with violence and antisemitism" sentence: the sources are in the article. I think all we have to do is move more of them into footnotes after that particular sentence.

I'd like to see more about the response of the German prosecutors' office. We don't have easy access to these articles as most of us aren't in Germany, but if any editor here is, it would be much appreciated if you could add material from, or draw our attention to, articles about this in the German press.

This article does very much reflect the views of the reliable sources on the issue. What we may need to do is cast our net wider to find reliable sources who express other views. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:51, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to understand why you consider the theory of the hired forensic consultants notable enough to go into the lead, but the response in the Wiesbadener Kurier calling it a "fable" is not sufficiently notable. It looks as if you are indicating your preference by giving it greater weight. Your edit summary, "you can't add it to the lead," is not very enlightening. --Don't lose that number 21:34, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't mind "fable" going in the lead. I reverted it when it was inserted only because of the way it was written. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:36, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, having said that, it would be better to quote from the prosecutors' spokesman used in that article. I'll read the article again to see what might be appropriate for the lead. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:37, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Done. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:47, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Don't lose that number, can I ask that you similarly edit in a neutral fashion, and that you sometimes (or even just once) make an edit that is not pro-LaRouche, or not hostile to one of his perceived enemies? It would be a welcome gesture of good faith. Many thanks, SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:56, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would be happy to discuss any edit that I have made that you think is not in harmony with NPOV and the goals of Wikipedia. --Don't lose that number 15:09, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's that you seem to expect other editors to edit in a neutral fashion, from all POVs, but you yourself edit from only one. Therefore, I hope you'll start editing from POVs other than a LaRouche one, so you're doing what you expect others to do. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:31, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. You seem to be asking me to post something defamatory about LaRouche to earn your trust. If I find anything favorable about LaRouche that is exaggerated or badly sourced, I will correct it. But all these "LaRouche" articles strike me as promoting the most irresponsible claims of his most extreme critics. The NPOV policy is supposed to discourage that. I support the NPOV policy and I hope you do also. --Don't lose that number 07:03, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Mr. Diderot, I am the one who translated the word from the Kurier headline as "fables," but as I said in my edit summary, "myths" is equally good, so I changed it to that. Perhaps that will satisfy you. If not, please discuss here instead of reverting. I can provide you with the original German if you like. --Masai warrior 14:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hr. Masai warrior, unfortunately your translation takes to much liberties and your representation is misleading.

First the translation issue. When translating quotes, you should always try to find words that match as precisely as possible. "Fable" would be "Fabel" and "Myth" would be "Mythos". The best translation of "Legende" is obviously "legend". The German word "Legende" has exactly the same background as the English word "legend". (The word exists with similar meanings in almost all European languages and comes from medieval Latin "legenda" meaning "what is read". )

Secondly, your interpretation of a headline can obvously not be presented as the opinion of the Wiesbadener Kurier. Look on the editorial page for that.

Finally, you have now also added an incorrect and very tendentious translation of "Mordverschwörung" as "conspiracy theory". But it simply means "murder conspiracy" and not "conspiracy theory", which in English ordinarily implies much more. --Denis Diderot 08:52, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am an experienced translator. I would always use a cognate when appropriate. However, an important feature of translation is to take into account the context. That is why Babelfisch and other translation programs produce such comical results -- they simply attempt to translate word for word. I invite you to translate this headline into something that makes sense in English: Nur die Legende hat ein langes Leben - Vier Jahre nach dem Selbstmord von Jeremiah Duggan findet die Mordverschwörung immer neue Anhänger, aber keine Beweise. If you come up with something better than what I have done, then by all means we should use your version. --Masai warrior 14:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well actually translation programs do not simply translate word for word, but that is a separate issue. "Only legends have a long life - Four years after Jeremiah Duggan's suicide, the theory of a murder conspiracy still finds new adherents, but no evidence." "finds more and more adherents" would be fine as well. "finds ever new adherents" would be more literal, but a bit old-fashioned in English.

Since Wiesbadener Kurier is a fairly unknown newspaper (regional, with a circulation of around 50000), I replaced the name with a description. --Denis Diderot 09:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In English language usage, the word "legends" would not be used in such a context, unless it were "urban legends" which is more specific and not called for in this case. The German meaning implies "silly, unproven stories which are believed by naive people," which in English would be better rendered as "myths" or "fables," and in a political context, most certainly "conspiracy theories." The English term "murder conspiracy" which you prefer does not carry this implication; instead, it is a legal term, implying that a group of people could be indicted for conspiring to murder someone. For these reasons, I find your translation inaccurate. I don't mind "still finds new adherents," though. I'm keeping that and reverting the rest. Also, it is proper and preferable to name a cited source. If you find some reason (in another cited source) to doubt the credibility of the Kurier, you should include it. --Masai warrior 14:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

1. Please don't edit my comments. Especially not to introduce errors.

2. The meaning of the word "legend" is ambiguous in both English and German. "Only legends have a long life", sounded nice, and preserved much of the original ambiguity, which is why I used it here (on the talk page, not in the article).

3. The word "Legende" appears in the headline. We don't know what the headline refers to. We should avoid speculation.

4. The term "murder conspiracy" is an accurate translation. But we don't need it. The current version is enough.

--Denis Diderot 15:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Evidently I deleted one character from your post. It was a mouse accident of some sort. Please forgive me. --13:59, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for explaining and don't worry about it. These things happen. Like now when half of your signature disappeared :) --Denis Diderot 14:58, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that once you take into account the passage as a whole, instead of splitting hairs on individual words, the meaning is clear, and the only ambiguities are the ones you seem to be trying to introduce. --NathanDW 16:18, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure it comes as a surprise to you, but I do take the whole passage into account. We obviously have no way of knowing what the headline refers to, and headlines are normally written by copy editors, who (unfortunately) often don't even read the entire article. We can't use it, but that's not a problem, since we don't need it. I did not introduce ambiguity. I removed it. Please read what I wrote above again. Slowly this time. --Denis Diderot 17:37, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cberlet, I see that you have deleted the category "conspiracy theories" which was there before I added my translation. Could you please explain what this means, because I do not understand it: "(Revert: No disruption to prove a point - violation of core Wiki policies)" --Masai warrior 20:46, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think if they had meant 'conspiracy theory' they would have written 'conspiracy theory'. Tom Harrison ^Talk 23:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Masai warrior, can you find a German text that uses the term "Verschwörung" (alone or with a modifier) and where it clearly means "conspiracy theory" (say, when speaking about the 9/11 conspiracy theories or something like that)? I'm thinking that for it to be conspiracy theory without a doubt, it would have been Mordverschwörungstheorie. Or would that be poor German? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Let's use some common sense here. If you use "murder conspiracy," then why would it be gathering more "adherents"? Presumably if there was a murder, the conspiracy to commit the murder would be finished once the deed was done. If you use "murder theory," you are eliminating the part of the word which is undisputed (Verschwörung=conspiracy) and replacing it with "theory," which sort of begs the question as to whether it is not obvious that we are talking about a conspiracy theory. I would like to ask the opponents of the term "conspiracy theory" to explain just what they think this article is talking about. --Don't lose that number 06:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's a fair point. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 06:08, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Denis is right about one thing, which is that a headline is not the opinion of the Kurier, so I changed that part and reverted the rest of Tom Harrion's edit. --Don't lose that number 06:18, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Let's use some common sense here." "Common sense". Is that the same as the sixth sense, or is it number seven?

We are discussing a lead. It is not entirely correct to say that the murder conspiracy gains more adherents. Article leads are often not grammatically correct.[9]

This is really very simple. Like Tom said: "if they had meant 'conspiracy theory' they would have written 'conspiracy theory'". Conspiracy theory in German, as I'm sure you all know, is Verschwörungstheorie.

--Denis Diderot 10:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If it is a free paraphrase of what they meant, then it is not a quotation of what they said. Tom Harrison ^Talk 13:52, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It seems clear to me that the Kurier article considers the stories about Duggan being brainwashed or murdered to be a hypothesis that alleges a group secretly working together often for an illegal or wrongful purpose. In notable cases the hypothesis contradicts what was or is represented as the mainstream explanation for one or more historic or current events. This is the Wiktionary definition of a "Conspiracy theory." --NathanDW 16:26, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article is based on the interview with Ferse. The headline and initial summary reflects that. It is probably not written by Degen but some copy editor. It is not clear to what extent the summary merely refers to the opinions described in the article.

I appreciate that there is a need for balance but that should be achieved by paraphrasing or quoting what the police and public prosecutors are saying.

Trying to achieve "balance" by incorrect translations, or free interpretations presented as quotes, is a really bad idea.

Besides, even if we could determine the opinions of the Wiesbadener Kurier, that would still only be marginally significant. The arguments and facts presented by the official spokespersons obviously carry much more weight.

--Denis Diderot 01:54, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Don't lose and Nathan, please don't keep adding that disputed headline. First, we have no agreed translation, and secondly, it's just a headline, and these are often written by copy editors, not the writer of the article. If the spokesman had said it, that would be important, and it'd be worth trying to track down the best translation; but if a local copy editor said it, then not. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 15:09, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for the length of this post.

I'm concerned about the way this article has developed since we added the material about the murder theory. The bulk of this theory was published in March 2007 by several British and German newspapers after the Duggans and their lawyers held a press conference. There's no problem with the material in terms of our policiess — our article is well-sourced; the topic is clearly a notable issue in the UK; the sources are mainstream and respectable (e.g. the Observer); and we stick closely to what they say.

My concerns spring from this being a murder allegation, and although the sources don't name suspects, it's clear that they're thinking about someone at the cadre school, and there weren't that many people there.

The thing that worries me is that I can't understand what the "new evidence" is supposed to be. In March 2007, the Observer wrote (emphasis added):

Two new reports from leading forensic pathologists suggest that Jeremiah Duggan, a student at the British Institute in Paris, was battered to death with a blunt instrument as he tried desperately to defend himself." [10] The lawyer for the Duggan family confirms that the reports are "new evidence": "Frances Swain, of lawyers Leigh Day and Co, said: 'It is clear from the new evidence that JD did not die in a road traffic accident.'"

They don't name the pathologists, date the reports, release the reports, or make clear what the pathologists did except to "review the evidence." There's no mention of the body being exhumed. They say the findings will be "sent this week (i.e. March 2007) to the Attorney General as part of a submission of evidence aimed at securing a fresh inquest ..."

But if you look at our article, Jeremiah_Duggan#Call_for_a_second_inquest_and_a_new_inquiry, it earlier says (emphasis added):

In July 2006, Erica Duggan's lawyers in the UK, Leigh Day & Co, asked the British attorney general to order a second inquest. They say that new evidence from former Metropolitan Police forensic photographer Paul Canning indicates that Duggan may have lost his life elsewhere before being placed at the scene. They say that there were no traces of skin, hair, blood, or clothing on the vehicles that allegedly hit him, or on the road. They also say there were no tyre marks. [11] Canning studied 79 photographs taken at the scene, and reported that the damage to the cars was not consistent with them hitting a human body. He suggested that one of the cars was hit with a hammer or crowbar "to make it look as though it had run someone over," according to the Daily Mail. [12]

The same lawyers (Leigh Day and Co) are referring to "new evidence" in July 2006 and in March 2007, and say both times that they are about to request a second inquest from the Attorney-General based on that new evidence.

Is the July 2006 new evidence the same as the March 2007 new evidence? Did the two new reports from leading forensic pathologists consist of them looking only at photographs, and can such a stark conclusion be deduced from photographs? Is one of these new reports the report from Paul Canning, the forensic photographer? Is he a "leading forensic pathologist"? Do leading forensic pathologists ever imply such certainty, and would they imply it having only reviewed photographs ("battered to death with a blunt instrument as he tried desperately to defend himself")?

There are also apparent inconsistencies regarding witness statements. The German police seem to have taken some. They know what type of car allegedly hit him, and they took an early statement from the driver (that Duggan ran toward the car waving his arms; his mother even quoted that several times, saying it indicated Duggan was trying to flag the car down because he was scared, not trying to throw himself in front of it). But now the claim from the campaign seems to be that the Germans did not take witness statements, and this is one of their grounds for requesting a new inquest.

Without going into detail about private correspondence, I have tried to clarify some of these issues (e.g. how many pathologists were there? when were these new reports written?) to no avail. I'm worried about us publishing an article containing serious allegations the evidence for which is hard to understand. I'm surprised the newspapers wrote the stories the way they did.

I've considered writing to the family's lawyers asking for clarification, but I hesitated in part because it's morphing from Wikipedia editing into journalism, and also because the lawyers are instructed by the family, so approaching them may be pointless; and if they answer our questions, it may cost the family in fees, which introduces another complexity.

I feel we need to do at least one of the following:

• (1) at a minimum, remove names from the article; we can't remove LaRouche's name, but then no one is suggesting he has direct involvement, so that's perhaps not an issue;
• (2) rewrite it so that there's much less detail; I liked the amount of detail when the allegation was simply that he may have become upset after the movement used an upsetting recruitment technique, because it was well-sourced and entirely consistent with allegations made by former members; a murder allegation is a different matter;
• (3) do our best to find more anti-murder-theory sources to give the article more balance, though I'm not sure other sources exist, and even with more balance, the allegation remains; or
• (4) put the article up for deletion on the grounds that, no matter how we write it, it's going to be a BLP violation; maybe in two years' time or so we can publish it again if more evidence has come to light.

Any thoughts? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 17:46, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have some. The debate over the Kurier article, above, seems sort of superfluous, because this has been an obvious conspiracy theory from day one, based only on what was in the British press. Murky, unproven allegations and insinuations, repeated shrilly over and over, with the sole intention of harming a conroversial political figure. You can't remove LaRouche's name, but that's the only one that counts in a rumor campaign -- it plants the subliminal message that "where there's smoke, there's fire." Asking family members for clarification would be OR. Under the ArbCom rulings, it would also be OR to publish the LaRouche organization's rather interesting analysis of the PR firms running the Duggan family's campaign.[13]. Adding more refutations doesn't rectify the problem. I recommend shortening it and steering clear of anything that is clearly dubious, even if published. --Don't lose that number 21:27, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This statement by Don't lose that number is so obvoulsy based on pro-LaRouche propaganda conspiracism that it rasies issues relating to admin decision about pro-LaRouche editors. I would support suggestion #2 above by SlimVirgin.--Cberlet 21:37, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Asking sources for more details isn't OR. It's only OR if they give unpublished details that we then publish. If they were to offer primary-source documentation, for example, we could use that (so long as it was publicly available in some form); we could at least use the dates from it to pin down how many forensic reports there have been and when they were written. It's a moot point though, because the inquiries I made didn't clarify anything. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:39, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The aticle cited above about the "PR firms running the Duggan family's campaign" [14] is a classic example of non credible conspiracist leaps of logic. It uses guilt by association and the fallacy of sequence implies causation. It is a prime example of why Wikipedia does not consider LaRouchite material to be a "reputable published source."--Cberlet 22:43, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How would we deal with the murder allegation in a rewrite? Yes, the allegation has been published by reliable sources, but it's not clear what they based their stories on. There's no indication that any of them have see the pathologists' reports; no clarity about how many reports there are and when written; no names of the pathologists. In fact, the stories say almost nothing of substance. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:46, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We pick the most reputable published sources, summarize what they say with multiple links; include a sentence of denials and claims by the LaRouchites with multiple links; and include a sentence of skeptical material from the German press with links. Wiki has no obligation to publish claims from the Duggan family made at press conferences or on their website. If reputable published sources choose to publish these claims, then we can cautiously cite what they publish. There is too much detail from the recent press conference. It should be trimmed drastically. The page before these new claims was more NPOV and factual.--Cberlet 22:43, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've reduced it by 1,700 words and cut out the names of LaRouche movement individuals apart from LaRouche and his wife. How does it read now? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:50, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is much better with the trims. Thanks for the work. --Cberlet 13:17, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

About the pathologists' report etc. I agree that it's rather unclear. Apparently David Shore told the mother in 2005 that the injuries were inconsistent with being hit by a car. After that some experts analyzed and reviewed photographs from the crime scene and of Jeremiah's injuries. That's about as much information we get.

On the other hand, they could not reveal too much information without jeopardizing a possible renewed investigation and future trial.

--Denis Diderot 02:31, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that in your shortening, you took out the material from the Wiesbadener Kurier. That should stay (also in Schiller Institute. --Don't lose that number 14:51, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like this was all about trying to remove the Kurier article, not trying to be responsible vis a vis BLP. --NathanDW 16:05, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nathan, for the love of god, please stop the bad faith and the conspiracy theories. There were genuine BLP concerns and others agreed with the edits. We all acted for good and clear reasons, not to achieve some hidden dastardly objective. The Kurier article is not removed; it is just that the headline is not quoted (just as it wasn't quoted before), and the details of the theory (for or against it) are no longer discussed. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 16:12, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Your latest edit summary says: "(what the headline said is of no importance here)" -- exactly why is that? --NathanDW 19:56, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Because it was something written by an editor, not something that was said by the prosecutor, and the translation is disputed. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:04, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To add my 2 cents worth, some of this stuff is laughable. I don't need an argument with SlimVirgin, but then after the spate of articles on the internet, no wikipedia user does. I just wanted to interject that some of the stuff cannot seriously be in any encyclopedia that claims to be serious. I like Wikipedia. I do not trust the British press and find the murder allegation funny. Once more I will add the question (and no need to answer it, as it is just for the readers of the talk page): If JD was murdered, and if he really was not hit by 2 cars, are the German police covering up the murder of a Jew? I say a Jew merely for effect. After all the scandal does this go to the highest levels of government? Is Merkel in on it? What fun, the papers that accuse LHL of spreading conspiracy theories are guilty of exactly that. --Nemesis1981 04:06, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The main lack of balance that I see now is that there are inflammatory quotes from the Berliner Zeitung, whereas the Wiesbadener Kurier is referred to dismissively as "a local paper" and the quotes are deleted. I think the question of "who wrote the headline" is a red herring, because the headline appears to be an accurate summary of what is in the article. Perhaps Maori Warrior would care to provide more extensive translations of the text in case someone disagrees. I will do a minor NPOV re-write, and I will avoid the use of the term "conspiracy theory" since it seems to be quite a hot button. I would like to pose the following question however: based on the Wiktionary definition of "conspiracy theory," does anyone here really want to argue that the Duggan theories do not match that definition? --Don't lose that number 20:40, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what wikitionary says, but here is a definition I wrote some time ago, and the Duggan situation doesn't fit it, because it's not a closed system. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:51, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The term "conspiracy theory" is used as a description of a particular type of narrative. A conspiracy theory explains a set of circumstances with reference to a secret plot, usually by powerful conspirators. One of the distinguishing features of a conspiracy theory is that it tends not to be falsifiable in the minds of believers. For example, if the claim is made that 4,000 Israelis were warned not to go to work in the World Trade Center on 9/11, and if it's later established that only 10 Israelis were ever employed there, the conspiracy theory evolves to include the claim that the Mossad and the United States government conspired to alter the records. That is, the conspiracy theory represents a closed system that is not subject to the usual force of evidence. This evolutionary growth in the face of evidence disproving the theory is one of the characteristics that distinguishes a conspiracy theory from a matter of simple controversy. A conspiracy theory is a matter of ideology; that is, the difference between an alternative theory, even a very controversial one, and a conspiracy theory is epistemological.

Your definition is your highly individual (one could say POV) definition. The Wiktionary definition is far more generic:

"A hypothesis that alleges a group secretly working together often for an illegal or wrongful purpose. In notable cases the hypothesis contradicts what was or is represented as the mainstream explanation for one or more historic or current events."

--Don't lose that number 20:58, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Wiktionary description is too broad. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:01, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Which definition comes from a Reliable Source? --NathanDW 16:13, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Although WP:COATRACK is not policy, it is certainly food for thought with respect to this article. --NathanDW 01:05, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

According to Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published sources online and paper, self-published sources are unacceptable, so I think the material cited to "Justice for Jeremiah" should go. --MaplePorter 07:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What is cited to it exactly? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 16:16, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is being used as a source for purported quotes from the British inquest. Surely the inquest was covered by Reliable Sources? --MaplePorter 13:06, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've replaced the website with other sources. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:29, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. --MaplePorter 00:27, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We have a source that is a link to a file on a Schiller Institute page that purports to a be an internal Metropolitan Police communication.[15] But the document is so thoroughly redacted that we don't really know who it is to or from. While intersting, I don't know that we can treat it as a reliable source for third parties. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:12, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I erred in restoring that cite by itself, because by itself it will baffle the reader. There is another cite lower in the article that explains what the document is and how it was obtained. I have paired the two cites now in both locations. --Marvin Diode 21:59, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how that changes the basic fact that we are using the Schiller Institute as a source for assertions about 3rd parties. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:10, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The basic fact is that we are using a primary source. The LaRouche PAC cite explains how it was obtained. --Marvin Diode 07:31, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Two arms of the same organization might not be the best corroboration. I'm not surprised that the LPAC site confirms what the SI and WLYM sites say. Have they ever disagreed? Since the LaRouche organization is known for spreading false information about opponents, and since there is no independent source, I propose we remove this source and the material supported by it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:38, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The photostat of the letter obtained by Freedom of Information is neither produced by the LaRouche group, nor is it about their opponents. --Marvin Diode 21:21, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We have no way of knowing who produced it because we don't have a reliable source for it yet. From what I've read on LaRouche sites, the Duggan matter is viewed as an attempt to discredit LaRouche or to distract from his message. Until we can find a reliable source for this I'm removing it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:55, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The disputed material is the following:

However, in September, 2007, the LaRouche Political Action Committee announced that pursuant to a Freedom of Information Act request, the British Foreign Office had released the July 14, 2003 Metropolitan Police report, in which it says that the Metropolitan Police found that the incident was “fully investigated” by the German police and that all witnesses had been interviewed. This finding by the Metropolitan police had heretofore not been made public.[16],[17]

The only source for this material is a LaRouche movement website. They are not reliable sources. If a reliable source for this material can be found then I don't object to its inclusion. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Original work which originates from Lyndon LaRouche and his movement may be removed from any Wikipedia article in which it appears other than the article Lyndon LaRouche and other closely related articles.(Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Lyndon LaRouche) This article is included on the "LaRouche template," and I see that some have argued that it is a case of WP:COATRACK, in other words, the main purpose of the article is to attack LaRouche. Therefore, it seems to me that under the arbcom ruling, material cited to LaRouche websites should be included, particularly when used to rebut attacks on the LaRouche organization. --Marvin Diode 00:41, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do you believe that Duggan belongs on the template? Do you believe that LaRouce sources are reliable? Do you believe that the Duggan matter is an attack on the LaRouche organization? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:49, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No opinions on the above. The questions don't seem to address the issue at hand. --Marvin Diode 14:24, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

They have a direct bearing on this matter. You say that, simply because Duggan is included on the template, LaRouche sources about him are accurate. LaRouche sources are not generally considered reliable. You further assert that the Duggan death is an attack on the LaRouche organization. These three assertions frame the debate. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:23, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, I don't say the things that you claim I say. I say that according to the arbcom, material from LaRouche-affiliated sources may be used on Lyndon LaRouche and other closely related articles, and the fact that this article is on the LaRouche template suggests to me that it is a closely related article. Read that sentence twice if necessary. Now, then, I also say, and I'll quote myself from the post above, that "I see that some have argued that it is a case of WP:COATRACK, in other words, the main purpose of the article is to attack LaRouche. Therefore, it seems to me that under the arbcom ruling, material cited to LaRouche websites should be included, particularly when used to rebut attacks on the LaRouche organization." --Marvin Diode 21:25, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"... material cited to LaRouche websites should be included, particularly when used to rebut attacks on the LaRouche organization." Where are the attacks on the LaRouche organization? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:35, 13 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The basic premise of the article is that LaRouche organization in some way caused Duggan's death. The source document that is being disputed here bears directly on that issue. --Marvin Diode 21:06, 13 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So you do believe that the Duggan matter is an attack on the LaRouche organization. Do you beleive that the LaRouche organization websites are reliable sources? Do you believe that anonymous emails should be used as sources? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:55, 13 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think this is going anywhere. I would prefer to get some input from third parties. In the meantime, you will note that I haven't reverted your deletions. --Marvin Diode 02:34, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

outside comment

I see no reason to think that LaRouche organization websites are going to be useful beyond the narrow situation where they might comment on the views of the LaRouche organization. I suggest the material be removed until it can be better sourced. Eiler7 17:53, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In this particular case, the LaRouche website is used to provide an explanation of how the Freedom of Information document was obtained. --Marvin Diode 18:01, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And another LaRouche website hosts the letter. In other words, LaRouche websites are the sole source for this assertion. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:19, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Other than the primary source it self, the FOI document, which what we are actually supposed to be discussing. --Marvin Diode 21:16, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But the only place we can find this anonymous email is a LaRouche site, which is not a reliable source. Even if the site were trustworthy, an anonymous email makes a lousy source. If this were legitimate then I'd expect that one of the several British papers covering the story would have mentioned it. The trouble with using primary sources is that they are hard to interpret and may not cover all aspects. For example, what other documents would this FOIA request have generated? What has the Metropolitan Police Dept. said or done since that email was written? Does the email reflect the official view of the department or just one person? There are too many variables for us to use this anonymous email as a source for this article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:07, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, with the context of this source completely unclear, it would be inappropriate to base any contentious content in the article on it. Doubly so given where this material originated, and thus the obvious doubts to its veracity. --arkalochori ^|talk| 05:09, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the comments above. Remove the link to the letter, unless there is evidence from neutral, reliable sources (i.e. not LaRouche websites) of its existence and relevance to this case. Terraxos 23:39, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

An editor just added the {{coatrack}} template to this article, albeit without presenting any reasoning on the talk page. It is hardly a "coatrack," the article discusses the young man and the circumstances surrounding his unfortunate death. The material is supported with citations from the international media coverage of the events in Wiesbaden. It covers little besides the Duggan affair. --arkalochori ^|talk| 06:01, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I put my reasoning in the edit summary. The article is about this LaRouche conspiracy and LaRouch stuff and rarely about the subject. If it was renamed "Jeremiah Duggan - LaRouche conspiracy connection" (bad title I know just an example) then it would not be a coatrack. William Ortiz 06:07, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is a brief section summarizing the background of the Schiller Institute, but I don't think the article is here just to hold it. The incident iteself has generated negative coverage and so the article will naturally include it. The article does include all views so I think it is consistent with NPOV. Obviously, the suWill Beback]] ·:· 06:15, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's about his life, death, and the theories that followed his death. Would a more agreeable title be the Death of Jeremiah Duggan? Are the accusations really in the realm of conspiracy? The Times Online and the Washington Post seem to disagree. The material from some of the more strident critics has been limited to the section describing the LaRouche movement, this is the only place where one's possible concern about LaRouche hysteria and conspiracies could originate in my view. The issue here is that the article isn't a Trojan Horse used to sneak in criticism of the movement, its well-cited material strictly covering the controversial circumstances of Jeremiah's final days. --arkalochori ^|talk| 06:18, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen this done. Madeleine McCann redirects to Disappearance of Madeleine McCann. William Ortiz 06:29, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Death of Jeremiah Duggan" sounds good to me. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:46, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have re-added the template. Clearly, the authors of this article wrote it as a showcase for criticism of LaRouche. Jeremiah Duggan would not otherwise be considered notable enough for an encyclopedia article. --Niels Gade (talk) 15:31, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The notability of the subject is due to the numerous articles written about his death. The only part of this article which isn't directly related to Duggan is the 200-word summary about the LaRouche movement. What changes do you propose to the article to clear it of being a "coatrack"? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:12, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose what would make the most sense is to convert the article to a redirect to LaRouche movement, and have a much shorter version of it there. Duggan himself is not notable -- the press attention was due to an opportunity to scandalize LaRouche. But LaRouche himself wasn't really involved, so "LaRouche movement" seems the logical choice. --Niels Gade (talk) 00:31, 23 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your view, but there's no reliable source that says the only reason the subject became notable was to scandalize a 3rd party. I don't see a resaon to merge, as this is a substantial an well-sourced article in its own right. I don't see any answer to the question about which specific parts make this article a "coatrack'. Without that info the tag should be removed. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:52, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The specific parts are the Berlet-cruft, located principally in the "LaRouche movement" section and in the external links. This is gratuitous material unrelated to Duggan. --Niels Gade (talk) 22:42, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what "Berlet-cruft" is, but I'll warn you about remaining civil towards other users. I'll look over the "Movement" section and remove unrelated material. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:48, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I made no reference to any editor, so I don't see why you are raising questions of civility. I am talking about the unecessary quotes from Chip Berlet, Dennis King, and their associates. --Niels Gade (talk) 23:08, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposals

First, I suggest that changes to the article be discussed here before implementation, given the controversial topic. Second, I would leave the coatrack tag intact until consensus has been reached. Finally, here are my proposed changes:

• Remove the "LaRouche movement" section, leaving only a link to LaRouche movement, and keep also both the allegation of anti-Semitism, and the statement by LaRouche opposing anti-Semitism. These can be incorporated later in the article where the issue comes up.
• Remove the external links that do not relate directly to Duggan. It looks like a bit of a "link farm" for LaRouche critics, and makes the coatrack allegation plausible.

--Marvin Diode (talk) 15:35, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't what's meant by COATRACK. All the associations in this article have been made by multiple reliable sources. I'll take a look at EL though, in case there are irrelevant links there, but bear in mind that they only have to be related, not actually about the subject. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 15:44, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I removed some external links, a couple of unnecessary refs, and tightened the writing a little, [18] taking it to around 1,500 words, not counting footnotes and external links, which I think is reasonable. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 19:17, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think that SlimVirgin's edits were generally helpful, although her comments about COATRACK made no sense to me. I still think that the "LaRouche movement" section should be scrapped altogether, and those portions which are relevant to Duggan absorbed into the main body of the article. I also came across this, which seems to be applicable, from WP:ONEEVENT: The bare fact that someone has been in the news does not in itself imply that they should be the subject of an encyclopedia entry. Where a person is mentioned by name in a Wikipedia article about a larger subject, but remains of essentially low profile themselves, we should generally avoid having an article on them. --Marvin Diode (talk) 21:56, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The ONEEVENT provision is for living people, intended to avoid people becoming the subject of a BLP just because of one issue that they were tangentially involved in. That doesn't apply here, in part because it's not a BLP, but also because Duggan's death, and what he did leading up to it, has been the focus of the stories.

The reason for the section on the movement is simply to tell people who they are; otherwise portions of the rest of the article would make less sense. We can try to cut it down even further if you like, but I thought it important to retain LaRouche's and the movement's perspective, and that necessarily lengthens it. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 22:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

News reports discuss the "'defence wounds' to Duggan's forearms and hands, which usually suggest someone trying to protect himself.", the "head injuries... consistent with being beaten... 'exclude any possibility that the injuries to his head occurred because a motor vehicle ran over the body'". They note that "Duggan survived long enough to swallow large amounts of blood indicates he took a long time to die, which would not be the case after a high-speed collision."

Why don't we? It's not like there's any lack of denials from LaRouche that he's a anti-semite with a violent organisation, or denials from German investigators that a organisation with a native-born German head that has infiltrated their country might have killed Jeremiah Duggan. John Nevard (talk) 05:34, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See Talk:Jeremiah Duggan/archive3#A concern. --Marvin Diode (talk) 15:00, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I did. We went from a small section on independent forensic assessments of Duggan's death, and a large chunk of LaRouchian conspiracism, to a small section of LaRouchian conspiracism. Certainly it's a good thing that there's no implication of culpability for individual LaRouche associates in the death, but a significant viewpoint has been hidden. John Nevard (talk) 05:39, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The German Wikipedia just deleted their article on Duggan altogether. --Niels Gade (talk) 05:46, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how that fact has any bearing on the point made by John Nevard. I'm sure the German Wikipedia has articles about things that the English Wikipedia doesnt have. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:41, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My point was that the story is a non-notable, malicious conspiracy theory. I suspect that our German counterparts came to that conclusion after debating it. It would be proper for us to do the same. --Niels Gade (talk) 14:44, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Until that time is there any reason we don't include the materil Nevard has cited? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:55, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there is. I provided a link a few posts back, and it seems no one has actually read the linked material (Talk:Jeremiah Duggan/archive3#A concern.) SlimVirgin, the editor who originally authored this article and certainly no friend of Lyndon LaRouche, had second thoughts about the very material that John Nevard is proposing, after she herself had initially added it to the article. I encourage you to read her comments in full, but her conclusion is that "I'm worried about us publishing an article containing serious allegations the evidence for which is hard to understand. I'm surprised the newspapers wrote the stories the way they did." She goes on to say that the self-contradictory nature of the alleged evidence poses a BLP problem, and I agree. --Marvin Diode (talk) 20:41, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They came to the conclusion that Duggan was not notable because of a lack of independent sources on google. As we have a large array of proper news sources, this is entirely irrelevant. Interestingly, our well-researched and occasionally neutral articles have been cited as reasons to keep developing articles on the LaRouche organisation in other language versions. Wouldn't it be convenient if ours disappeared? John Nevard (talk) 01:45, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Chip, I'm wondering about this edit. [19] His family has always stressed this, because they feel he was targeted as a result of it, at least in part. The article does make clear further down that he's Jewish, where it says he stood up during the conference and declared it, but I felt we should make it clear earlier on, given its alleged relevance. SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 19:36, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jermiah was raised Jewish, but it is not equivalent to say that the father is from a country and the mother is from a religion/ethnic group.

It is like saying someone's father is Austrian and his mother is Catholic. It is a big no no--Cberlet (talk) 22:12, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You're right that it could be phrased differently, but I still think it would be better to have his ethnicity in the early life section, given its relevance. I'm willing to leave it out if you really think that's best, but my preference is to have it in. SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 22:31, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We can only summarize the info we have. According to Duggan's mother's statement here, she is Jewish and her husband was born in Ireland. She doesn't say where she was born, or what religion her husband follows (except that he isn't Jewish). If that's what we know that's what we should say. I'm sure we can find way of conveying it that doesn't make the two equivalent. Perhaps:

• Duggan was born in London, the son of Hugo, who has was born in Ireland, and Erica, is Jewish and who followed Jewish traditions on raising her son.

That's not quite it either... ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:07, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think SlimVirgin had it right when she referred to the "alleged relevance." I also think that Cberlet had it right when he objected to a formulation that emphasized the religious orientation of the mother, while omitting that of the father -- it is a compination of undue weight and WP:SYNTH, because it would be an attempt to slant the article in a way so as to promote a theory that Duggan was a victim of anti-semitism, without providing a reliable source. I propose that you leave the article as is, unless you have a quote from the mother that explicitly says "I think my son was targetted by antisemitism," and then it would have to be properly sourced (not from a self-published site like Justice for Jeremiah.") It seems highly speculative and therefore the sourcing requirements must be stringent. --Marvin Diode (talk) 06:15, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

By whom is Justice for Jeremiah self-published? Anyway there are other sources that describe Duggan as Jewish. The ethnic and religious heritage are important to any biography. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:22, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've added the text I drafted above. Further improvements are welcome. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:07, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have been following the discussion of this article at the Wikipedia Review, and I agree that the following source should not be used: this translation by an unknown translator of the "Berliner Zeitung" is hosted on a self-published website. We have no way of knowing whether the translation is accurate. --Zola says (talk) 07:42, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sockpuppets are no welcome on this topic. Please edit here under your main account.   Will Beback  talk  07:44, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Helloooo....I love everyone on Wiki and on the wiki-review! Kisses! But the new account is right, there is a problem with the article here: The article in BZ says, that they put Jeremiah "through the wringer" and Wikipedia cites this as "in the wringer". So, not even citation is correct.

Cheerio! Love you all! 81.210.193.64 (talk) 14:52, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, another mystery editor. Regarding foreign language sources, there's always a problem with translations. Whether translated by Google or Babelfish, by partisan movements, by regular Wikipedia editors or by mystery editors, there is always a question about the accuracy.   Will Beback  talk  17:36, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am distributing Hugs, Kisses and Corrections. Do you find that "mysterious"? Do you want a big Bear Hug? Cheerio! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.210.193.64 (talk) 18:18, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Whoever you are, mystery editor, the correction has already been made. The text of the article says "through the wringer".   Will Beback  talk  18:32, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Love and Kisses and a big Bear Hug to Will! Cheerio! 81.210.193.64 (talk) 19:25, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If someone wants to question a translation, they should make specific points in doing so. Which aspects of this translation are deemed questionable? Everyking (talk) 01:41, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't quite understand, actually. The IP says it should be "through the wringer" instead of "in the wringer". But the article has always said "through". I'd assume that it's an idiomatic metaphore, not a literal claim. Maybe the IP misread this article.   Will Beback  talk  01:45, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Quite metaphorical. That particular expression is more common in German than in English (for whatever reason ;) ). It says "in the wringer" on the website. Just a Germanism; the translation was not done by a native speaker. --JN466 01:46, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've checked the translation on justiceforjeremiah.com. It is pretty accurate; small mistakes I found are: the number of the road is wrong; it is B 455 in the original, not 445; the original does not say "that Jeremiah had rubbed the cadre school's organisers up the wrong way", it just says "Es stellte sich heraus, dass Jeremiah dort angeeckt war," meaning he had rubbed (unspecified) "people" the wrong way. The rest is sometimes a bit clunky, but generally quite accurate. I've linked to the German original, and left the translation as a secondary link. --JN466 01:45, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, so its metaphorical, not literal. Very disappointing. I had thought Larouche to be more evil than this, but if he only uses metaphorical wringers and no literal ones..Thats disappointing. Anyway, Cheers, and Hugs and Kisses and a big Bear Hug to Will for being such a cutie! 81.210.193.175 (talk) 04:09, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Jayen, you were saying on the LaRouche talk page that some issues here were unclear, so I've restored some earlier material that I'd removed as too detailed. The problem has been that LaRouche accounts have insisted some material be removed, then have later complained that it wasn't clear how certain issues were linked. I've therefore restored some of that material, including one of the sources who said LaRouche had stayed on for a few days after the conference, as you requested. The article is still only 22 kB of prose, so the extra details haven't made it too long. Thanks for checking that translation. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 21:40, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, will have a look through. I restored that part about him saying to his girlfriend he feared he had an implant in his body; that seems striking. One thing that's just occurred to me is that we may be quoting times from two different time zones. When Jeremiah spoke to his mum in England, it was 5.30 in Germany (and 4.30 in the UK). However, when we say that he called his girlfriend in Paris at 4:15 a.m, that would seem to have been Central European Time (France and Germany are in the same time zone, the UK is not). Is the 4:15 am time from the BBC programme? At any rate, if he called his girlfriend at 4:15 CET and his mum at 4:30 UK time, there would have been more than an hour between the two calls. --JN466 21:49, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just parking a source for potential use later: [20] --JN466 21:59, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We say, "It is not known where these telephone calls were made from". That is not in the source; the source just says the calls were not made from a mobile he had been lent. --JN466 22:20, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Jayen, is there a reason you keep adding the Mail? What it says is repetitive, and it's best to stick to the highest-quality newspapers. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 22:22, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, didn't see the above. Combining the headers. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 22:23, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Daily Mail has had its share of problems, and I wouldn't use it for tabloid-like claims in BLPs; I believe it has been sued for such things, and lost in court, several times. But for straight news reporting (outside the realms of science, medicine etc.) consensus at RS/N seems to be it is an RS. I am inclined to rate it of value here because they sent their correspondent, Sarah Oliver, over to Wiesbaden in 2003. Their reports on several aspects of events in Germany are quite detailed and appear to be based on local research. Btw, "magnetic things" are also mentioned in the Washington Post, adding corroboration. The "implants" are not in the WP; but given that they appear in at least two Daily Mail reports, separated by several years, I am inclined to think they are based on an interview conducted at the time. --JN466 00:02, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that if they sent a reporter there, we can certainly use them as a reliable source. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 01:39, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Be careful about OR regarding the times. First, we should stick to the best sources for them. Secondly, bear in mind that time differences vary across the year; we'd need to know what the differences were in March 2003. And third, it's possible the newspapers themselves got confused. Probably the clearest sources on this issue are those written just after the inquest, because they would have been referring to official documents. Where there is confusion, we should clarify in a footnote. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 22:26, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Independent article says he called his girlfriend in Paris at 3.20, and expressly states that was about an hour before he called his mother at 4.30. German papers say he called his mother at around 5.30. I'm pretty sure this stacks up, but I'll double check when the UK and German changed from standard time to DST that year. --JN466 22:38, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Daylight Saving Time in both the UK and Germany began on 30 March in 2003. The changeover date has been synchronised since the late 90s. --JN466 23:05, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We should definitely add the statements made by Sebastian Drochon, another person staying with Duggan in the house, as to what happened that night, plus the fact that he called Duggan's girlfriend that night to ask whether she had heard from him. Sources:

• http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/the-lost-boy-537274.html
• http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/16/16074/1.html --JN466 22:53, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/1446301/German-police-probe-into-British-students-death-was-inadequate.html --JN466 23:26, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 23:17, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. We could still expand on that, using the German-language source. Do you read German? --JN466 23:23, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I added more from the German article, so this is a better diff. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 23:26, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, brill, thank you. About the time difference: I think the sources are agreed that the phone call to his mother was an hour or so after the call to his girlfriend. If the sources report these to have been at 3.20 and 4.30 respectively, or at 4.20 and 5.30 respectively, than that would be consistent with different papers using different time zones as their reference. Just so we don't confuse the reader more than we have to. --JN466 23:29, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I added something about it in a footnote. It was never clear where he made those calls from, or when -- whether it was before or after he left the house, and I seem to recall some sources saying the calls (to girlfriend and mother) were made in quick succession. I'll re-read the various sources later and tomorrow to refresh my memory. It's been a while since I've read most of them. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 23:32, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the second call was made after he left the house. German sources say he left the house at 5.15, and spoke to his mum around 5.30. It seems most likely to me that he called from a public phone box; hence being cut off twice. To keep an international call going from a phone box, you had to feed lots of coins. :( British sources consistently say his mum was called just before 4.30, and that time is etched in her mind. JN466 23:37, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The mother has a timeline here, and confirms what you're saying, that the calls to girlfriend and mother were one hour apart (see point 15). SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 23:39, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, great! That settles it. We just have to decide now which time zone we want to use, and how to prevent readers who have read a source of one or the other type coming in and changing the time time and time again as per what they have just read. :) --JN466 00:09, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sources needed for times

Do we know whether, on March 27, 2003, Paris and Frankfurt were on Central European standard time (GMT+1), or Central European summer time (GMT+2), and whether the UK was on GMT or British summertime (GMT+1)? The times changes at the end of March, and the three countries may not change on the same day. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 01:21, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, here is a source, citing British Dept of Trade and Industry, saying that: "For 2003-2007 inclusive, the summer-time periods begin and end respectively on the following dates at 1.00am Greenwich Mean Time ... In 2003: the Sundays of 30 March and 26 October ..."

So on March 27, 2003, the UK was on GMT. And I think that same source is saying that, as of March 11, 2002, British and European time changes were synchronized. It should therefore be safe to assume that, on March 27, 2003, France and Germany were on Central European standard time, GMT+1. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 02:17, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, Slim. I had mentioned something to this effect above; you must have overlooked it. German, French and British changeovers to DST have been synchronised since the nineties. --JN466 08:50, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The conference at which LaRouche spoke was a three-day conference beginning 21 March 2003, per Witt in the WP (cf. the Schiller Institute programme). The conference took place in Bad Schwalbach rather than Wiesbaden proper (Bad Schwalbach is about 20 km from Wiesbaden). Duggan was among a group of about 50 conference participants who went on to a cadre school held at a youth hostel in Wiesbaden (Witt). Per Lorscheid, Duggan divulged that he was a Jew on Wednesday 26 March, the day before he died. Witt too mentions that he stood out as a Jew and talked about Tavistock at the much smaller cadre school event, rather than at the Bad Schwalbach conference, which was over by then. --JN466 12:07, 5 November 2009 (UTC) Berliner Zeitung is also positive this happened at the cadre school, not at the conference. I'll move the statement accordingly. --JN466 12:50, 5 November 2009 (UTC)  Done --JN466 13:20, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I believe we need sources for the following content:

The British inquest heard from a psychiatrist that Duggan had no history of mental illness. His mother told the court she believed he had been the victim of a recruiting technique used within the LaRouche movement known as "ego stripping," in which recruits are made to doubt all their basic beliefs. A psychiatrist testified that a severe stress reaction can be caused by a rapid change in a person's belief system.[5][17]

I can't find it in the sources indicated. The sources probably got displaced somewhere along the line. --JN466 22:40, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lorscheid mentions that the LaRouche group uses psychological terror measures, and gives examples. He raises the possibility that Duggan was psychologically destabilised. However, he does not mention ego stripping. --JN466 08:57, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the work on the sources. I accept that the Witt article, which has the Duggan case as its main focus, arguably justifies a description of the White deprogramming here. However, I can't find anything covering the sentence "His mother told the court she believed he had been the victim of a recruiting technique used within the LaRouche movement known as "ego stripping," in which recruits are made to doubt all their basic beliefs" in Witt. --JN466 00:43, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Tylden report, which we cite at length (linked to a webarchive snapshot of justiceforjeremiah.com), appears to be a primary source. The only google match for "Jeremiah Duggan" Tylden is this WP article: [21]. Is there any secondary source that quotes this report? --JN466 00:48, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's a report that was presented to the court. We're allowed to use primary sources, particularly when they've been mentioned by secondary sources. Newspapers have talked about a psychiatric report. They just didn't publish her name. We can remove the name if you want to, though I don't see it as an issue given that she wrote a report for a public inquest. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 01:10, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've taken out the sentence as to what the mother told the court, pending a source. I have had a look for newspapers mentioning a psychiatrist's presentation to the British inquest. I cannot find one; the nearest there is is this Times report http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article455431.ece which states, without giving a source, that Jeremiah "had never been treated for depression or any psychiatric illness, and had never been heard to express suicidal thoughts". There is also Lorscheid suggesting that Duggan was "psychologically destabilised by the LaRouche cult", which is a useful statement we could use.

• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Do you recall a specific source commenting on the psychiatrist's presentation to the court? I don't mind us using her name, but a third-party source commenting on the psychiatrist's presentation would help IMO. --JN466 22:09, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The following items are a violation of WP:SYNTH:

• Erica's father was a German Jew, most of whose relatives died during The Holocaust, and who himself fled to England to escape it. This is unsourced, and has no relationship to the subject. SlimVirgin has included it in an effort to bolster the case she is making.
• In December 1973, The New York Times obtained a tape recording of an "ego-stripping session" of a British activist who LaRouche believed had been brainwashed to kill him. LaRouche was present during the session. On the tape, there are sounds of weeping and vomiting, and someone says "raise the voltage," though LaRouche said later this referred to bright lights, not an electric shock. The activist is heard complaining about a terrible pain in his arm, and LaRouche can be heard saying, "That's not real. That's in the program." This one has a source, but it certainly doesn't mention Jeremiah Duggan. Again, SYNTH. --Tisiphone redux (talk) 07:58, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that we need a source linking the White session, which is well attested, to the Duggan case. --JN466 08:52, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As for Mrs Duggan's father, I wouldn't know whether it was SlimVirgin who added this info, but it is sourceable: [22]. I'll add a ref. --JN466 11:44, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, that Erica Duggan's father escaped Germany and most of his family died there was sourced already, via the ref at the end of the paragraph: Witt in the Washington Post mentions it, as does the Times article linked above. --JN466 11:50, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• I propose that to avoid this sort of thing in future, we agree to use sentence-level, rather than paragraph-level, referencing in this article. Otherwise, whenever we insert a sentence from another source in the middle of a paragraph, the beginning of the paragraph gets separated from its correct reference. --JN466 13:20, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Re: ego-stripping and Chris White. The Washington Post writes about it in the context of Duggan, so it's not a violation of SYN.

Re: references. Jayen, the Witt ref was at the end of the paragraph, and there was nothing in between. I don't think it's necessary to have sentence-level sourcing when there's no interruption, unless the point is a very contentious one. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 17:10, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but Slim, this topic is one of the most contentious we have. --JN466 18:19, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are lots of points within the article that aren't contentious, though. That his grandfather was a Holocaust survivor isn't contentious, nor is that Duggan attended the Tavistock and that LaRouche regards it as a brainwashing centre, but you repeated the refs for those though they were already there. [23] [24] It's not a big deal, but personally I'd prefer to confine sentence-level referencing to the contentious points, or to paras with multiple refs. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 19:27, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

<— Okay. If you'll allow me, I'll explain what I mean.

Assume there is a para with five sentences sourced to ref X. Each sentence is signified by an Xxx:

• Xxx.  Xxx.  Xxx.  Xxx.  Xxx.<ref X>
  Now I come along and insert a sentence sourced to Y:
  
• Xxx.  Xxx.  Yyy.<ref Y> Xxx.  Xxx.  Xxx.<ref X>
  You see? Now I need to access ref X to check if the first two sentences came from ref X as well. If I am unable to access ref X (because I haven't got JSTOR, or the book has no preview in google books, etc.), then I can't verify if I should add ref X after the first two sentences. These two sentences will now look effectively unsourced. Or worse, a new editor may think they come from ref Y. If they check Y, and can't find it there, they may delete the info as unsourced. None of that can happen in a para that looks like this:
  
• Xxx.<ref X>  Xxx.<ref X>  Xxx.<ref X>  Xxx.<ref X>  Xxx.<ref X>
  After adding a new sentence, it'll be
  
• Xxx.<ref X>  Xxx.<ref X>  Yyy.<ref Y>  Xxx.<ref X>  Xxx.<ref X>  Xxx.<ref X>
  Everything is still clearly sourced, easily verifiable for readers and other editors, and I don't have to look up another source to check what to do with the first two sentences. The downside is, it looks messier.

In my experience, single-ref-per-para articles (and editors) get confused after a while. That is by the by; I'll respect your wish henceforth. --JN466 00:32, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, please, you make a good point, and if you prefer sentence-level refs, it's fine. It's just that personally I prefer not to see lots of little numbers, and I often combine multiple refs for that reason between one set of ref tags. But it's just personal preference. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 01:14, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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It seems that this article is primarily written by one person were to discredit the German judicial system and to promote a conspiracy theory in the British press. I think the choice of the material cited in the article to be very selective in making this argument. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Monika1981 (talk • contribs) 14:25, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

For anyone looking at this, the names of two BBC programs are confused in a few of the references. Just noting here that I'm aware of it and will fix it tomorrow. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 02:44, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Those are fixed now. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 04:57, 10 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Parking the most detailed secondary sources here for future reference, in the order they appeared:

• Kirby, Terry (2003). The Lost Boy, The Independent, 28 August 2003.
• Midgley, Carol (2003). Student died in terror of cult, The Times, 7 November 2003.
• Samuels, Tim (2004). Jeremiah Duggan's death and Lyndon LaRouche, BBC Newsnight, 12 February 2004.
• Smith, David James (2004). Motorway madness, The Sunday Times, 18 July 2004.
• Kirby, Terry (2004). The cult and the candidate, The Independent, 21 July 2004.
• Witt, April (2004). No Joke, The Washington Post, 24 October 2004.
• Townsend, Mark (2004). The student, the shadowy cult and a mother's fight for justice, The Observer, 31 October 2004.
• Townsend, Mark (2006). Cult riddle of student's death, The Guardian, 17 September 2006.
• Townsend, Mark and Doward, Jamie (2007). New evidence shows 'suicide' student was beaten to death, The Observer, 25 March 2007.
• Nugent, Helen (2007). Call for new inquest on Jewish student linked to far-right 'cult', The Times, 28 March 2007.
• Nordhausen, Frank (2007). Ermittlungen einer Mutter, Berliner Zeitung, 4 April 2007.
• Degen, Wolfgang (2007). Nur die Legende hat ein langes Leben, Wiesbadener Kurier, 19 April 2007.

SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 22:30, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a recent article, though I don't know if it has any new info.

• Taylor, Jerome (2010). Mystery of dead Briton and the right-wing cult The Independent 27 February 2010

There are also a few offline sources of comparable quality.   Will Beback  talk  19:44, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the Independent article, which I hadn't seen. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 05:15, 10 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is a cite error " Cite error: Invalid <ref> tag; no text was provided for refs named Degen; see Help:Cite error." Anomiebot will dig the ref from history if it is there, once the nobots is removed. Rich Farmbrough, 12:29, 23 April 2010 (UTC).[reply]

OK found it (re)added here and restored. Rich Farmbrough, 12:29, 23 April 2010 (UTC).[reply]

This article is written from the point of view of the British judicial authorities, who are only commentators in this case. The point of view of the German authorities, who actually have legal standing, is buried at the end of the article. It seemed to me that the obvious solution was to give equal billing to the public statements of the Germans. However, Slimvirgin, who judging from the history seems to have written this article almost single-handedly, reversed my edit, so I have added the unbalanced warning. If the article were titled "British campaign on Death of Jeremiah Duggan," the present layout might be appropriate, but if it is billed as a factual article explaining his death, the German viewpoint ought not to be suppressed. Albert Sumlin (talk) 11:44, 22 May 2010 (UTC)sock of banned editor[reply]

:Slimvirgin, what you put in the "edit summary" box was "that makes the lead too long." I'd like to point out that you had other options; if the length of the lead is a problem, you could reduce both points of view proportionately, instead of reducing only that of the German authorities. Also, much of what you reversed was not in the lead at all, it was in the middle of the article, but you still moved it back to the end. Albert Sumlin (talk) 11:53, 23 May 2010 (UTC)sock of banned editor[reply]

Albert, I don't agree that the German position needs more in the lead, because there really isn't more to add. We can only go by the reliable sources. The Germans ruled that it was a suicide, performed no autopsy, destroyed his clothes, and took only very basic details from the drivers. That position hasn't changed or been expanded on. It's in the lead, and repeating it several times won't help. But if you have new German sources on it, please let us know.

What I would like to do with the German position is expand what the courts said, but I've run into language difficulties. I read German but I'm having problems with the legal language and don't feel confident enough to write an overview. If you read German and can translate it that would help a lot. The latest decision is here. Another Wikipedian translated some of it (see here), but ideally we need the whole thing, as well as an earlier decision they said they were upholding. SlimVirgin ^{talk contribs} 09:07, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

:::I've read your article several times, and it is clear that the central theme is an allegation that the Schiller Institute committed murder. That's a serous allegation, and it's clear that many people believe it, judging by the press coverage, although the actual evidence looks to me to be only circumstantial or speculative. One quote that you removed from the lead that I think should be replaced is the following: "In an interview in March 2009, Ferse's deputy, Klaus Schulte, stressed again that there was no evidence linking the Schiller Institute to Duggan's death." Since there is an unequivocal statement by the German Public Prosecutor's office that there was no evidence that Schiller Institute committed murder, it seems only fair that it be included in the lead, given the seriousness of the allegation. Besides, it is quite recent, unlike the other statement that you allowed to remain in the lead. You also removed a statement by the prosecutor's office that "suggested the murder theory had developed because Duggan's mother cannot accept that her son committed suicide," which also seems appropriate for the lead, because so much of the article is devoted to exploring the murder theory. Albert Sumlin (talk) 00:29, 25 May 2010 (UTC)sock of banned editor[reply]

I think your point about adding the 2009 statement from the prosecutor's office is a valid one, so I did that. I changed it to LaRouche movement, rather than Schiller Institute, because we don't mention Schiller in the lead, so suddenly to have them not being blamed would look odd. [25] Regarding the personal comment about Duggan's mother, I removed that from the lead some time ago as it didn't seem appropriate, and also seemed like over-egging. SlimVirgin ^{talk contribs} 12:11, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've re-ordered the lead a little in the hope that it seems more neutral. The first paragraph gives the basic facts. The second paragraph goes into the British position. The third reflects the German one, and the fourth is the LaRouche response. This seems like a fair balance, so I hope it's okay that I removed the tag. This has always been a difficult lead to get right, because the overwhelming majority of the sources are saying the same thing, and we're supposed to reflect that. Yet what they're saying is not even close to neutral, so we've had to struggle with that quite a bit. SlimVirgin ^{talk contribs} 13:11, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]