File talk:US map-Midwest.PNG

It would be appropriate to use the cross-hatch designation for Oklahoma as a whole and on at least the northern part of Texas. Text clearly states that western Oklahoma and the Texas Panhandle have obvious affinities with the Midwest in history, culture climate, and economic activity.

If I could, I would crosshatch the part of Texas that includes only the section west of US 75 from Dallas, northward to the Oklahoma state line, north of Interstate 20 to Monahans, and east of Texas State Highway 18 north to the New Mexico state line. That would put Midland-Odessa, Abilene, Fort Worth, and Dallas on the border of the region that has significant "Midwestern" character.

The inclusion of even portions of KY and WV has been debated on the MIdwestern talk page. What is the general consensus here? To me, the treatment of these border states on this map is highly consistent with the other regional maps and should be preserved as is.

I concur. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 04:09, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Disagree. This is not a consensus issue. If the map represents what exists in another published source, that source or sources should be cited. Otherwise, the map is original research. -- SwissCelt 06:07, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The continued assertion that this map is original research is entirely fallacious. Please see the Midwestern talk page and the Southern talk page where a vigorous debate has taken place along these lines, including numerous verifiable, NPOV sources that support this map. I have provided one of the most straightforward sources from these discussions on the Midwestern page, from the Journal of Economic History. That quote reads:

"The Midwest is defined as the manufacturing portion of the East and West North Central census regions plus West Virginia and Kentucky cities along the Ohio River." (pp. 924)

Regional definitions vary. Louisville, KY - by far the state's largest metro area and most influential city - is included and mentioned in that journal essay, as are several cities in West Virginia. To completely exclude the entirety of these states from an analysis of the Midwest - when a myriad of outside sources clearly support their mixed cultures, heavily influenced by the Midwest - is inaccurate. --70.168.88.158 01:33, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please understand what I've written here: Either it represents something published in another work, or it's original research. There's no in-between here. As this map apparently represents other published work, that work should be sourced... as it is now. If it did not represent other published work, the map would be original research, and no amount of consensus would change that. This is not a consensus issue. -- SwissCelt 12:32, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Disagree I believe this map must be reworked, now for all of those who support it please don't fly off the handle, I understand and accept the sources that you have presented, several counties in WV and KY along the Ohio river are considered by some apart of the Midwest however is that enough to include them in this map? Some consider parts of Texas in the Midwest, seen by the state chartered Midwestern State University, others consider Colorado, Oklahoma, and states as far west as Montana as a part of the Midwest. Those who argue in whole hearted support of this map, must realize why many people involved in this debate consider it improper: the map places KY and WV on the same status as nebsaka, Missouri and Kansas, those states are obviously the most accepted Midwestern and it is unfair and historically improper to group them in such ways perhaps there can be another map made. Also I would prefer that we keep decorum, so don't suggest that I am some sort of devil. - thank you Astuishin 05:22, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Map As my last point on the issue, I would like to re-emphasize the three sources provided in the caption of this map, the sources provided on the Midwestern talk page, and the sources provided in the archive of the Southern talk page. No outside sources have been provided to justify the inclusion of TX, OK, CO, MT, or other such states in the Midwest in anything other than a mercurial, colloquial use of the term (i.e., Midwestern State University in TX), while I have provided a myriad of sources that firmly establish the ancestry, economic history, religion, and other factors of several key regions of the border states of KY and WV are firmly entrenched in the Midwest, and considered thus by verifiable scholarly work. In the case of KY, the state's largest population center and another heavily populated region - accounting for over a third of the state's population - have been established as Midwestern in my sources; this could not be said of TX, OK, CO, etc. In both Kentucky and West Virginia, a string of cities sitting along the Ohio River include Census Bureau MSAs partially in unquestionably Midwestern states, which cannot be said of TX, OK, CO, or any other states in the country; for example, the Louisville MSA includes counties in Indiana, the Evansville, Indiana metro includes all of Henderson County, KY, the Cincinnati MSA includes counties in Kentucky, the Ashland, West Virginia MSA includes counties in Ohio, and the Wheeling, WV metro includes counties in Ohio. Not a single metro in TX, CO, OK, MT, etc. straddles the border between our "unquestionably" Midwestern states, and by this alone KY and WV are meritorious of inclusion. The Great Plains states are striped on this map because some scholarly considerations of the Midwest only include the states of the Northwest Ordinance, and Missouri is striped because historically it was considered a state of the South, and still is considered such by many today. The caption provided should clearly provide an explanation of the nomenclature used with the map; if another editor feels that I did not properly explain the system in the caption, I encourage him/her to change it. "Kentucky and West Virginia are generally included in the South" is a strongly worded phrase.

--70.168.88.158 19:25, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't Oklahoma state be striped? --Kudzu1 (talk) 04:54, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]